Once again the bullshit's here 'cause history moves in circles

[sovay]

Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg has a really good thread on the history of the Star of David and its two-thousand-year use as a Jewish symbol, not merely a symbol of the modern State of Israel.

The explanation is necessary because of the D.C. Dyke March, which yesterday I heard had followed the 2017 Chicago Dyke March in banning Jewish pride flags under the defense of anti-Zionism. Currently they seem to be stating that what they have really banned are "nationalist symbols," a category which appears to fold the Star of David at any more visible scale than a necklace automatically into "pro-Israel paraphernalia." Which is historically ignorant and logically inconsistent, especially since pride variants of the Palestinian flag are explicitly welcome on the grounds that its limited recognition as a nation-state means Palestine by definition cannot express nationalism, but neither of these factors matters if the point is to strain only the right kind of Jews into your march, not just the ones who might be, you know, dykes.

I find this situation upsetting and also sheerly exhausting. It is not a distraction; it's not smoke and mirrors if people are getting hurt; but it's the same almost inarticulate fury I feel at things that are wrong. They are fighting from false premises. People are tearing themselves apart over lines drawn around strawmen. I don't see the Christian cross being called out as a symbol of historical oppression unfit for representation in a radically inclusive queer space even though the track record of Christianity on queerness is just about as dreadful as its history of crusade and genocide across any number of nations, including the one we're all embedded in right now. "Nationalist" symbols only, which filters the overlap of iconography and identity to one ethnic group handily. Hence the necessity of Ruttenberg's thread. I wish it didn't feel like arguing with shifting goalposts, premised on quicksand.

I had a terrible night already. I couldn't fall asleep until it was light out; then I couldn't fall asleep because it was light out. When I finally did manage to achieve unconsciousness, I had nightmares about being caught up in some contemporary suppression of dissidents (I should be that important) and was woken within the hour by two phone calls, one of which was a wrong number from a man who didn't appear to understand how wrong numbers work. (Him: "Can I speak to Lauren?" Me: "There's no Lauren at this number." Him: "Okay, I'll call back.") I have too much work to do before the week is over and not enough time to think and I can't help but wonder if I were more plugged in to Boston Pride, would I be hearing the same kind of one-of-the-good-ones gatekeeping from the city I live in? I'm thinking of a line written last week by Keith Kahn-Harris, which shouldn't be a radical suggestion: "Anti-racism should not be a reward for being culturally interesting or politically sympathetic; it should require no justification." More and more I feel there are people for whom it will never be justified and while I worry less about them shooting up synagogues or burning down rabbis' homes, I worry very much that they will stand with folded hands and look sorry and do nothing, nothing at all.

Comments

[muccamukk]

Oh jeez. I hope they reverse the decision, but harm is already done. If anything, banning religious symbols generally makes more sense than nationalist ones. I bet the Christian cross or fish is a lot more triggery to queer people than any national sign could ever be. Given, you know, the whole ex-gay movement, etc. (And not intending to be on one side or another re the middle east, but a symbol can be nationalist even if a nation doesn't exist. Just ask Quebec.)

[sovay]

I bet the Christian cross or fish is a lot more triggery to queer people than any national sign could ever be. Given, you know, the whole ex-gay movement, etc.

There are just so many logic holes all over this process and all of them make me feel twitchy.

(And not intending to be on one side or another re the middle east, but a symbol can be nationalist even if a nation doesn't exist. Just ask Quebec.)

For example, there's another! (Prior to the founding of the State of Israel, would the iconography of the Zionist movement have been fine with the D.C. Dyke March?)

[isis]

I don't see the Christian cross being called out as a symbol of historical oppression unfit for representation in a radically inclusive queer space even though the track record of Christianity on queerness is just about as dreadful as its history of crusade and genocide across any number of nations, including the one we're all embedded in right now.

Yeah. Ugh. My issues about Judaism and Israel and Palestine are dark and full of murk, and I instinctively yell "NO!" and run away every time they are raised.

I hope you solve your sleep issues, which sound really awful.

[sovay]

My issues about Judaism and Israel and Palestine are dark and full of murk, and I instinctively yell "NO!" and run away every time they are raised.

*hugs*

I very much doubt that I personally would march with a Jewish pride flag, because I don't tend to march with flags or even signs; I imagine I would wear either my bisexual unicorn or my genderqueer mermaid T-shirt and my pearl chai bracelet, which has started to become go-to jewelry for important events. But that is irrelevant to knowing that it is wrong to police anyone else who wants to.

I hope you solve your sleep issues, which sound really awful.

Thank you. I've had some patches of good sleep recently, but last night was just not it.

[selkie]

I am having a super angry fucking goddamn day.

[sovay]

I am having a super angry fucking goddamn day.

I don't even know who to suggest we eat in this situation. Each other, apparently.

Love.

[gwynnega]

That is really upsetting and wrong. Also, I'm sorry you had such a bad night, sleep-wise.

[sovay]

That is really upsetting and wrong. Also, I'm sorry you had such a bad night, sleep-wise.

Thank you. It definitely doesn't help.

[cmcmck]

So some nationalist symbols aren't considered nationalist?

Interesting........

I wonder about how some of these types would think about the flag of one of my ancestral nations if they even knew what it was?



Sorry you aren't sleeping so well- dealing with hatred and haters can be so exhausting. :o(

[sovay]

I wonder about how some of these types would think about the flag of one of my ancestral nations if they even knew what it was?

Don't go bringing your confusing diasporic realities into our immaculate ideological battle lines!

Sorry you aren't sleeping so well- dealing with hatred and haters can be so exhausting.

Thank you. The two do feed on each other.

[yhlee]

*support support*

[sovay]

*support support*

*hugs*

[lauradi7dw]

Did you see this, in a comment to Rabbi Danya's thread?
https://www.washingtonblade.com/2019/06/06/we-dont-have-to-choose-between-dyke-and-jewish-identities/

It seems particularly odd to single out the Star of David as Israeli-specific on a day that we saw repeated images of it over USian graves in Normandy (mixed among all those crosses).

[sovay]

Did you see this, in a comment to Rabbi Danya's thread?

I did; she actually included it in her original thread. The core of their argument seems to rest on this assertion—

"The 'Jewish Pride Flag' seemed to only rise in popularity after the Chicago Dyke March – it was never a flag that we felt directly connected to, and it does not represent all Jewish Dykes. The flag is a Star of David placed in the center, superimposed over a rainbow flag, and is almost entirely reminiscent of the Israeli flag, swapping out the blue and white for a rainbow. The star of David itself only became publicly popular as a symbol of Judaism in the 19th century – it coincided with the First Zionist Congress choosing the six-sided star for the flag of the future Israeli nation state in 1897."

—where the one part I do not contest is that the authors of the article never felt directly connected to the Jewish pride flag and that it does not represent all Jewish dykes. I have no reason not to believe either of those facts. I am afraid my response is, that's nice? I don't feel especially connected to the flag myself, but that doesn't mean I'll ignore the historical record to keep other people from carrying it. As to everything else, the pre-Zionist history of the Star of David has already been covered by Rabbi Ruttenberg and, at the time of the Chicago Dyke March, Bogi Takács. I've seen at least one tweet observing that the Jewish pride flag is in fact neither a rainbow Israeli flag nor an Israeli pride flag (which is an official thing, who knew). The six-pointed blue star on a background of rainbow stripes has been around since at least 2006, including on the Pride page of the Jewish Women's Archive since 2010; other Jewish pride flags have also been in play since long before the Chicago Dyke March. So their information is wrong, and since it is that information which they offer as proof of the D.C. Dyke March's radical inclusivity rather than zero-sum exclusion, I don't buy it.

It seems particularly odd to single out the Star of David as Israeli-specific on a day that we saw repeated images of it over USian graves in Normandy (mixed among all those crosses).

I bet that's because you care about history as history, not just as a handy bludgeon.

[batdina]

man, you'd think at least we could have Different fights this time every year.

sorry you're not sleeping. I'd say we insomniacs should meet up and use the time productively, but there's that whole 3k mile thing that gets in our way.

[sovay]

man, you'd think at least we could have Different fights this time every year.

David Schraub responded by just retweeting his posts from 2017 and I can't blame him.

sorry you're not sleeping. I'd say we insomniacs should meet up and use the time productively, but there's that whole 3k mile thing that gets in our way.

Thanks. Likewise. Everyone I know could use a teleporter. And if we added a time machine, maybe we'd have the space in our lives for sleep.

[thawrecka]

I have nothing deep to say, but that really sucks.

[sovay]

I have nothing deep to say, but that really sucks.

That is a valid response to a sucky situation and I appreciate it.

*hugs*

[aurumcalendula]

Ugh, that sucks.

[sovay]

Ugh, that sucks.

It does! And enough things suck already!

(Thank you.)

[julian]

I hope that if I were connected to a Pride celebration in ways that meant organizing it, I would have the human decency not to fuck up like that. Because *sheesh*.

[sovay]

I hope that if I were connected to a Pride celebration in ways that meant organizing it, I would have the human decency not to fuck up like that.

I bet you would! (You want to organize a Pride celebration?)

[kore]

Oh my fucking God do these people REALLY not get that equating nationalism with "being pro-Israeli" and "therefore" Judaism IS IN FACT PART OF ANTI-SEMITIC PROPAGANDA? LITERALLY? (I still have vertigo brain so I probably put that in a garbled way, but I think I got it basically right.) Like, imhoe the Oh Yeah What About Israel Hunh? thing is almost never brought up in good faith (sad LOL), it's almost always used as a gateway to bigotry and it's so fucking infuriating. Also now I love that Rabbi and this thread https://twitter.com/TheRaDR/status/988053113214062593

I find this situation upsetting and also sheerly exhausting. It is not a distraction; it's not smoke and mirrors if people are getting hurt; but it's the same almost inarticulate fury I feel at things that are wrong. They are fighting from false premises. People are tearing themselves apart over lines drawn around strawmen

Yeah, the whole 21st century fight is so exhausting and crazymaking. Not that the 20th century didn't have its propaganda and show trials, but it feels like everything has been dialled up to 11.

[sovay]

(I still have vertigo brain so I probably put that in a garbled way, but I think I got it basically right.)

You did, and I can never tell if they don't get it or if it's just convenient to pretend ignorance so that they can go on doing it, as if it doesn't hurt when you only punch someone in the face by accident.

Also now I love that Rabbi and this thread

She's great! I would follow her if I were on Twitter. Instead I check in with her account every couple of days, which is also what I do with, like, spatch.

Not that the 20th century didn't have its propaganda and show trials, but it feels like everything has been dialled up to 11.

The stakes are high and the internet amplifies and we are supposed to have sorted this shit out already. Instead, see title of post.

[heron61]

I expect conservatives to be racist anti-Semitic scum, but anti-Semitism and racism on the left utterly infuriates me. Palestinian rights are important, but so is not being someone who buys into the crap the fash are selling.

[sovay]

I expect conservatives to be racist anti-Semitic scum, but anti-Semitism and racism on the left utterly infuriates me.

I suspect that the levels of left-wing anti-Semitism have risen in recent years, because a rising tide floats all garbage and global levels of anti-Semitism have risen in recent years, but I have seen credible evidence that it's always been present because anti-Semitism has always been present and it feels right now very much like a problem that everyone who isn't personally affected by it finds easy to dismiss because it's not synagogue massacres or Chabad arson (it's just part of the climate that enables them) and how dare you suggest that we the progressives are racist, don't you know we're the good guys, we punch Nazis, and anyway is it even possible to be racist against Jews with all their privilege, and the end result is what I realized I was feeling in 2017 and in 2018 noted had gotten worse and I really don't want to make the State of the Anti-Semitism an annual event around here, I just want it to get better, and part of what would make it better is left-wing types actually allying with Jews rather than subscribing to the same old killing conspiracies, just in a different, more social-justice-veneered key. Like, I understand that anti-Semitism is famously referred to as the socialism of fools, but no one needed to make that literal. [edit] The problem is that it's not just buying the fascist crap; there's homegrown lefty crap in there too. If you start from the principle that Jews are other (and therefore undeserving of your protection, alliance, human decency), then whatever your placement on the political spectrum, you'll find some belief to back you up.

[thisbluespirit]

As everyone else has said, that sucks. A lot. <3

[sovay]

As everyone else has said, that sucks. A lot.

Thank you. *hugs*

[kore]

OT but a little cheering?

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jun/04/athens-buried-rivers-stream-favoured-by-plato-could-see-light-of-day

[sovay]

OT but a little cheering?

Definitely cheering! I didn't realize Athens had lost rivers. I wonder if all cities do.

[selkie]

*points little pile vertebrae*
Ate it. Ate a... Bone?

[sovay]

Ate it. Ate a... Bone?

*scritches*

[rinue]

This is so enraging and sad. I have always had Jewish-American friends and I have often had Israeli friends, and not only is it clear that these are different populations, but a citizen is not their government? As should be obvious to queer folks living in Trump's U.S.?

Part of queerness, and of pride, has always been about the ways our multiple identities overlap - being gay and a teacher, being a lesbian and into Star Trek, being bisexual and a Cuban immigrant - being a whole person.

I don't find this absurd trend is made any better by saying "oh pretend you don't have any country or any ethnicity, it's not anti Semitic!" But also it is anti Semitic; it is clear people get more righteous about Israel than they do about China, or Venezuela, or anti-migrant violence in Italy. I feel like I'm watching a lot of sports team signaling, where a segment of the left is beating up on Jewish symbols to show stick it to Fundamentalist Christians, and forgetting about Jewish people, who are not imaginary unicorns? It's weird and sad.

[sovay]

I have always had Jewish-American friends and I have often had Israeli friends, and not only is it clear that these are different populations, but a citizen is not their government? As should be obvious to queer folks living in Trump's U.S.?

I feel there are a whole lot of commonsense understandings which go out the window where Jews are involved, probably because of the thing where anti-Semitism is a conspiracy theory and conspiracy theories are famously impermeable to facts—if anything, they feed on the opposite—but that just makes it more maddening to deal with; you point out that, no, actually, gravity exists, and they tell you that's just what the magnet-hoarding lizard people at the center of the hollow earth want you to think.

(But, yes, in an age of "Not My President," it is really obvious when you don't allow the same disavowal to non-Israeli Jews.)

Part of queerness, and of pride, has always been about the ways our multiple identities overlap - being gay and a teacher, being a lesbian and into Star Trek, being bisexual and a Cuban immigrant - being a whole person.

The D.C. Dyke March even claimed that it "exists to celebrate and center all Dykes"; the organizer stated further that "All people should have a space to celebrate themselves, but I feel like at this moment in D.C. there is definitely a demand for a more inclusive way to display pride and protest." Apparently that just meant without visible Jews.

I feel like I'm watching a lot of sports team signaling, where a segment of the left is beating up on Jewish symbols to show stick it to Fundamentalist Christians, and forgetting about Jewish people, who are not imaginary unicorns? It's weird and sad.

I think some of it is that performative punching-up that actually just punches the people who are already getting punched. I worry that some of it is not performative, and they know quite well that real people are being hurt, and they're just fine with it, because we may be real in the sense that we're not abstractions, but we're not real in the sense that we matter.

Thank you.

[asakiyume]

People really can suck sometimes.

[sovay]

People really can suck sometimes.

They do and I'm sick of it!

[sholio]

I've got nothing here except *hugs* and anger at this kind of bigoted schismatic stupidity.