sovay: (Rotwang)
sovay ([personal profile] sovay) wrote2014-07-06 03:30 pm

As the world keeps coming

1. What a lovely portrait of Leslie Howard this is. And proving my point that he was basically a weird-looking man, here's another—same artist, same subject, so much more off-kilter. I rather like this photo, too. Geekily taking notes is a fascinating way for anyone, but especially an actor, to represent themselves.

([livejournal.com profile] sartorias is currently moderating a really interesting discussion about the literary descendants of Percy Blakeney over at Book View Café, so I'm all over that.)

2. The world's earliest known erotic graffiti has come to light on the Greek island of Astypalaia. Νικασίτιμος οἶφε Τιμίονα. And in addition to the fifth-century phalloi, there are "carvings depicting oared ships, daggers and spirals—all still discernible despite exposure to the erosive effects of wind and sea." That's pretty cool. Now I should like to read more about those cemeteries.

(It's interesting: if you tell me that a cemetery is unique for containing nothing but the pottery-buried bones of thousands of children under three years old, I assume we're looking at a pattern of sacrifice, even knowing that there are still scholars who argue stillbirths and infant mortality rather than ritual infanticide as an explanation for the Carthaginian tophets—Mary Gentle has one alt-Carthaginian character in her novel Ilario: The Lion's Eye (2006) rebuke the alternative as a blood libel. In the case of the Kylindra cemetery, it may be that there are clear archaeological markers of death by natural causes, or at least an absence of evidence for death by anything else. I don't doubt the value of sacred ground to lay a lost child in, whether it was just learning to walk or a miscarriage. I still wonder every time why it is that people have such a difficult time accepting human sacrifice in "civilized" cultures. Carthage is not an outlier in the ancient world. The Romans practiced it explicitly in times of extremity and casually in gladiatorial combat—funeral games, the lives of the gladiators dedicated to the di manes, the ancestral gods of the underworld. The Etruscans sacrificed prisoners taken in war, not unlike the Aztecs or Maya; their tomb art is full of bloodshed. Cahokia's population numbered in the tens of thousands at its height and its mounds are full of sacrificed bones. And that's without even touching the question of less direct forms of sacrifice: whom we cherish, whom we allow to die. It is not some barbaric, alien rite in which our ancestors never of course engaged (although yours totally did). I have a hard time thinking of a culture that at one time or another has not.)

3. We did not watch 1776 (1972) for our anniversary, but we did cook. We made barbecue mac and cheese. We'd encountered something similar on the late-night menu at jm Curley's a few weeks ago, umami-bombing a peppery white cheddar sauce with pulled pork. We had leftover, very rare steak tips. Spoiler: it came out great.

(We made the sauce according to my family's recipe, substituting as needed with the ingredients actually available to us—minced galangal instead of ginger, fire cider instead of cider vinegar—and completely faked the chili powder because it turned out we don't own any. [livejournal.com profile] derspatchel dubbed the results "Helljam" because it started with six crushed chiles pequin and came out a deep simmering syrupy red. I love my mortar and pestle so much. Cheese sauce, mostly two kinds of cheddar with a little Pecorino Romano and some American because it was in the refrigerator. White pepper and a little paprika, without which I always think noodles and cheese tastes weird. Shells, because it didn't need to look exciting, just retain the two sauces really well. We steeped the finely chopped tips in the helljam and then laid little pockets of spicy meat within the mixed shells and cheese, topped with crumbled Romano, and baked until the whole thing was bubbling. Then ate half of it between us while the cats played dinner theater in the living room.)

Today I am underslept and have deadlines! No regrets.

[identity profile] poliphilo.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 08:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Howard didn't really have the looks of a leading man- and yet he somehow convinced the world he was impossibly handsome. I guess that's the kind of magic a great actor can wield.

[identity profile] swan-tower.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 07:03 am (UTC)(link)
I've had that reaction to a few actors, yeah. Adrian Brody has been known to strike me as far more handsome than his face actually is. (Though it varies depending on the performance.)

[identity profile] swan-tower.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 07:17 am (UTC)(link)
There's also the difference between photographs and motion.

God, yes. Charisma is a thing of motion, possibly always.

[identity profile] snowy-owlet.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 02:37 pm (UTC)(link)
See also: Benedict Cumberbatch.

[identity profile] snowy-owlet.livejournal.com 2014-07-08 12:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I feel that interesting is always better than blandly beautiful.
rosefox: Green books on library shelves. (Default)

[personal profile] rosefox 2014-07-08 06:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Tillllldaaaaa

[identity profile] asakiyume.livejournal.com 2014-07-06 09:45 pm (UTC)(link)
That's very thought-provoking and, I think, true, what you say about human sacrifice, and this line in particular

And that's without even touching the question of less direct forms of sacrifice: whom we cherish, whom we allow to die.

That's got a punch-to-the-stomach amount of force to it. Why? Why more so than outright sacrifice? I don't know. Maybe because outright sacrifice acknowledges what it is and maybe even honors the victims [MAYBE. I'm not at all sure] more than the death-by-neglect deaths.

Your sauce sounds delicious. Did I tell you that I bought some of the fire cider? I did. I loved it.

[identity profile] swan-tower.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 12:40 am (UTC)(link)
I've pondered at times the difference between sacrificing people with the intent of bringing about good (e.g. Mesoamerican flaying rituals to summon rain for crops) and sacrificing them with the intent of preventing evil (e.g. execution of prisoners to deter future criminals).

Whatever the difference, you can't tell me ours isn't a society that practices human sacrifice. We just do it mostly for secular reasons.

[identity profile] asakiyume.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 01:42 am (UTC)(link)
Excellent point. One could say that mass shooting victims are a kind of child sacrifice too--they are literally bodies laid on the altar of the second amendment.

[identity profile] swan-tower.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 07:01 am (UTC)(link)
Capital punishment is the one that I really stick on, because "human sacrifice" as we usually employ the term doesn't cover deaths through negligence or what have you. But if you want to talk about authority figures deliberately ending the lives of people for some intended effect, then capital punishment qualifies, and we're just kidding ourselves if we say it doesn't.

(And any argument based on "but human sacrifice of the sort the Mesoamericans did is different because the effect they hoped it would achieve didn't really take place" can be answered with the stack of literature showing that capital punishment isn't very effective, either.)

[identity profile] asakiyume.livejournal.com 2014-07-08 12:34 pm (UTC)(link)
I was thinking about this so intensely that I had the impression I'd responded, but I realized just now I hadn't yet.

What I was thinking was, I think your argument works entirely for the death penalty as a presumed deterrent: clearly, it's sacrificing people ritualistically for the sake of a desired future state (lower capital crime rates). However, insofar as there's an individual-punishment element ("you have committed a crime that's punishable by death, and so we are going to kill you"), I think it's a different thing. Societies that acknowledged what they were doing as human sacrifice in one realm (e.g. Aztecs) presumably also had ways of dealing with criminals that involved, in some cases, execution, but they made a distinction between the two sorts of killing. (I'm saying presumably, but I may be entirely wrong: I don't know anything about Aztec society beyond vague public knowledge, much of which, I realize, is likely to be wrong.)

I guess what I'm saying is, for the thing to truly be human sacrifice, I think the intention of the doer does matter. I think killing people for crime deterrence is human sacrifice, but killing them as punishment is not--so I see capital punishment as partially human sacrifice and partially not.

Otherwise, all acts of sanctioned killing become human sacrifice--and maybe we want to call them that, but if we do, then I think we're back to needing to distinguish the different flavors of them. Ogod, and now I'm thinking about all the sorts of sanctioned and awful killing there are. Ahhhh, gotta pull back a bit….

ETA: sorry to send this to you multiple times. Discovered typos -_-
Edited 2014-07-08 12:39 (UTC)

[identity profile] swan-tower.livejournal.com 2014-07-11 06:06 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree that intent matters, which is why I wouldn't call things like accidental shooting deaths "human sacrifice" in the strict sense of the word. It's true they're a sacrifice from the perspective of being a thing our society is apparently willing to give up in order to have guns everywhere, but they aren't performed with the intent of bringing about a particular end. So yes, capital punishment can be viewed both ways.

Then there's the deaths of soldiers in war, which is another fuzzy border case. "Nobody ever won a war by dying for a cause; he won it by making the other bastard die for his" -- but generals know their tactics will carry a death price, and pay it in order to potentially achieve the desired end. One difference there, though, is that specific individuals are not targeted for death; another is that if the end is achieved without death, that isn't a failure of the concept, but rather a great victory. Plus questions of the instrumentality of the death: I think it needs to not just be incidental to the actual process, but the means by which the process is meant to be enacted. If that makes any sense.

(Sorry if I dragged you back down a morbid rabbit-hole, here.)

[identity profile] asakiyume.livejournal.com 2014-07-15 06:42 am (UTC)(link)
Heh, I'm plenty morbid and depressive left to my own devices; no worries there!

And yes, absolutely, what you say about instrumentality: deliberate, and where the death is the thing being offered for the accomplishment of the goal …. which, yeah, disqualifies mass shootings. The death penalty remains the best example, on that score.
gwynnega: (lordpeter mswyrr)

[personal profile] gwynnega 2014-07-07 04:54 am (UTC)(link)
Leslie Howard was a weird-looking man, and I just plain never noticed!
rosefox: Green books on library shelves. (Default)

[personal profile] rosefox 2014-07-07 09:45 pm (UTC)(link)
It's interesting: if you tell me that a cemetery is unique for containing nothing but the pottery-buried bones of thousands of children under three years old, I assume we're looking at a pattern of sacrifice

Whereas I immediately think of the ongoing scandal in Ireland. Women were sacrificed; their babies were collateral damage.
Edited 2014-07-07 21:45 (UTC)

[identity profile] ap-aelfwine.livejournal.com 2014-07-07 10:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Interesting graffitti, that. I seem to rememember sexual acts depicted in Bronze Age Scandinavian rock art. I can't help wondering if in some cases the motivations might have been more similar to those behind the written words on Astypalaia. Then again, it's hard to divine the true motivations in that case as well, and I'll stop myself here before I get into a spiral of meditation on the fog of history.

I still wonder every time why it is that people have such a difficult time accepting human sacrifice in "civilized" cultures.

Aye. I'm not sufficiently up on Carthaginian archaeology--I can think of ways to test the hypothesis of sacrifice against the hypothesis of separate burials for infants lost in early childhood, something like the separate cemeteries for unbaptised infants from mediaeval Ireland,* but I wouldn't know how to evaluate the evidence well enough.

I had a co-worker at one point who'd written an analysis of one of the Cahokia mass burials of young women as the elimination of a chiefly lineage that had lost a political struggle, rather than a sacrifice in the usual understanding of the term. I wish we'd stayed in touch, because I'd have been curious to know more about it. I've sometimes wondered if she became unhappy with me for the twenty pounds of dubious broken quartzite that my lab sent to her as potential debitage and bifacial tools, but she would have known it wasn't my job to evaluate, cull, or discard them once the field crew had bagged them up and delivered them to me.

In any case, massacre on political grounds, in order to stop their future sons carrying on their uncles' and brothers' policies or claims or whatever was important in Mississippian political struggles, is, in its way, a sacrifice as well.

ETA: Glad you've no regrets. Good luck with the deadlines!

*At least I've seen sites alleged to be this. I'm increasingly uncomfortable with a lot of the Irish archaeology I devoured as a child, especially that of the Middle Ages; maybe it's an irrational sentiment, but I've lost my trust in the Anglophone voice when it comes to Irish-speaking people.
Edited 2014-07-07 23:03 (UTC)

[identity profile] ap-aelfwine.livejournal.com 2014-07-10 01:04 am (UTC)(link)
I think people from the dawn of time have just liked to talk about either the sex they've just had or the sex they wish they were having.

Aye. And the latter can seldom be under-estimated. I really wonder if I'd write half as much erotica as I apparently do if I weren't so very single.

...I have no handy references for it and I'm not sure if it's just something I think someone should be checking out.

Both of those seem very reasonable to me. If somebody hasn't done that latter job, or at least isn't working on it now, I'll be very disappointed in the state of Carthaginian archaeology.

I might actually have a look through Academia.edu* to see what might be found on the matter. And on the Cahokia thing--I really wish I knew more about Mississippian archaeology, having managed in May to visit the Jones Museum at Moundville in Alabama, which is one of the best small archaeological museums I've seen. Moundville's altogether an impressive site, although not on the same scale as I'm given to understand Cahokia is on, and I wish I'd had more time to walk the grounds.

*I think that's what it's called--it's not as good as JSTOR or the like, but one can log in with one's Facebook account alone, the which I've done because there was a paper posted there making a case for Tartessian as a Celtic language.
spatch: (Diner - Booth Service)

[personal profile] spatch 2014-07-07 11:57 pm (UTC)(link)
The hardest part of that sauce making was determining whether or not "Helljam" should be written as one or two words.

[identity profile] ladymondegreen.livejournal.com 2014-07-14 10:28 am (UTC)(link)
I seem to have taken a leaf from your book and not slept at all tonight (and in return I hope you have taken a leaf from mine and are sleeping soundly).

My father did a really great sermon on the biblical rebuke of child sacrifice to Moloch, which is to say, child sacrifice by burnt offering a few months ago that really stuck with me. I wonder if I can get a transcription of it from him. Sadly, it's never quite as good on the page as when delivered, but that's the nature of improv.