![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
There's no treaty
Pursuant to this post, I expressed to my mother the frustration of not knowing where two of her grandparents were born and she dropped a literal book of genealogy on me. It was the result of an exchange between a professional genealogist and my aunt who is a forensic artist. It's far from exhaustive, I still had to comb through it for the relevant photocopies of documents, but the ones I needed were there.
My great-grandmother for whom I was named was born in what is now Khotyn, at the time of her birth part of the Bessarabia Governorate of the Russian Empire, at the time of her naturalization part of Romania, nowadays in Ukraine.
My great-grandfather for whom my brother was named was born in what is now Nemyriv, at the time of his birth part of the Podolia Governorate of the Russian Empire, at the time of his naturalization part of the Soviet Union, nowadays in Ukraine.
(My other great-grandmother was born in what is now Vyshnivets, at the time of her birth part of Poland, by the end of her life part of the Soviet Union, nowadays in Ukraine. My other great-grandfather was born in what is still Łódź, at the time of his birth part of the Russian Empire, by the end of his life part of Poland, where it remains, the outlier, to this day. The family history there just gets wilder every time I look at it, including this time.)
I always knew the borders had shifted, the countries changed around them in their lifetimes, shifted further in the more than century since all of them were born and even in my own lifetime, but it is very strange to have the details illuminated at the same time as a violent effort is underway to redraw those borders once again. It's raised echoes and I am waiting for them to settle. I have never been stateless in my life. With any luck I never will be. I have never even had more than one passport. But these are the stories I fell asleep hearing, from places where the names changed. The country is not the echo; whether it will stay the country it has chosen is.
My great-grandmother for whom I was named was born in what is now Khotyn, at the time of her birth part of the Bessarabia Governorate of the Russian Empire, at the time of her naturalization part of Romania, nowadays in Ukraine.
My great-grandfather for whom my brother was named was born in what is now Nemyriv, at the time of his birth part of the Podolia Governorate of the Russian Empire, at the time of his naturalization part of the Soviet Union, nowadays in Ukraine.
(My other great-grandmother was born in what is now Vyshnivets, at the time of her birth part of Poland, by the end of her life part of the Soviet Union, nowadays in Ukraine. My other great-grandfather was born in what is still Łódź, at the time of his birth part of the Russian Empire, by the end of his life part of Poland, where it remains, the outlier, to this day. The family history there just gets wilder every time I look at it, including this time.)
I always knew the borders had shifted, the countries changed around them in their lifetimes, shifted further in the more than century since all of them were born and even in my own lifetime, but it is very strange to have the details illuminated at the same time as a violent effort is underway to redraw those borders once again. It's raised echoes and I am waiting for them to settle. I have never been stateless in my life. With any luck I never will be. I have never even had more than one passport. But these are the stories I fell asleep hearing, from places where the names changed. The country is not the echo; whether it will stay the country it has chosen is.
no subject
Look in the atlas and you'll find it there:
We cannot go there now, my dear, we cannot go there now."
no subject
Thank you for reminding me of that poem, and I see why it is in your head.
no subject
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustów
His grandfather arrived in England during WWI with a Lithuanian passport, possibly because he had apprenticed (as a watchmaker) somewhere in Lithuania. On the 1940 US census, he is listed as being born in Lithuania, but two years later, when even middle-aged guys had to register for the draft, he wrote Russia as the birthplace on his registration card. The family joke was that the language at school changed every time an army marched through, but I think it's just that, a joke.
no subject
I have heard similar jokes from other families, though, so it speaks to something about how the languages are seen to change, whether they do or not.
(The thing where Poland as an independent country kept flickering in and out of existence and changing shape every time it did produced a lot of border-shifting.)
no subject
!!!
(Also, forensic artist?? Cool!)
no subject
I mean, it's a three-ring binder, but I think it still counts.
(Also, forensic artist?? Cool!)
(She was always a visual artist, but when she retired from being a dancer, it's how she chose to train her art. I love it.)
no subject
I share your unsettled feelings.
no subject
I don't think I knew that about your family. I will ask you sometime for the names from Lodz.
I share your unsettled feelings.
*hugs*
no subject
no subject
My mom's been doing some digging into her family's geneology the past couple of years and found more digitized records than expected.
Based on when he came to the US, one of my great grandfathers probably left Poland because of the 1905 - 1907 revolutions.
It would be neat to find out about my grandfather's uncle (or great uncle?) who supposedly was one of the Whites (it's unclear if that means White Russian or the Polish White faction), but we haven't had luck so far.
no subject
I really thought in the case of my great-grandfather from Nemryiv that the information had been lost—all the other documents I had ever seen for him gave his place of birth as Podolia, which is a region, not a town. It was on his wife's naturalization papers, spelled as if in Russian, not Ukrainian. He spoke Russian; we know because he banned it from being spoken in his house.
Based on when he came to the US, one of my great grandfathers probably left Poland because of the 1905 - 1907 revolutions.
(Legit.)
It would be neat to find out about my grandfather's uncle (or great uncle?) who supposedly was one of the Whites (it's unclear if that means White Russian or the Polish White faction), but we haven't had luck so far.
I hope you can find out at least which! I am glad you have so many more records available.
no subject
no subject
It is information I am glad to have, regardless of the strangeness of the timing.
no subject
no subject
Does said friend have any insights, or just a matching donation of boggle?
no subject
Papers, please/Papers, please God! seems to be the thing to explore, if it ever becomes possible.
*swaps a few shells, idly*
no subject
One of my friends recently cleared up something that had been puzzling her about her great grandmother in the family tree and found out (via a previously unknown octagenarian cousin) that the confusion was due to her great grandmother leaving her husband, who then took up with another woman, who adopted the name of her grandmother. That really doesn't help!
Oddly that makes her the second friend to have found their family tree confused by an undocumented change of name.
no subject
no subject
All I got at this point is shape-shifting and teleportation. It's a full day on foot if you walk like I do! And that doesn't solve the documentation!
no subject
Also, I assume they did walk like you do, but a) that’s A HIGHWAY, there aren’t wormy little back roads into Warsaw from Łódź unless you — huh, actually hold the line I’ll get back to you about doing it through Fabianice which was a gated suburb and b) even a wartime seven-year-old with a hardy sense for ducking and covering will slow adults. They at least a little did it by private motor which means bank, but whose bankroll?
no subject
Eeek!!!
no subject
no subject
My mother says this war has a family feel. She has felt that way from the start.
One of my friends recently cleared up something that had been puzzling her about her great grandmother in the family tree and found out (via a previously unknown octagenarian cousin) that
the confusion was due to her great grandmother leaving her husband, who then took up with another woman, who adopted the name of her grandmother. That really doesn't help!
Seriously, no! What?
Oddly that makes her the second friend to have found their family tree confused by an undocumented change of name.
My namesake great-grandmother's family changed their name in the process of immigration for reasons that, if the family stories are true, is hilarious. (It involves evading the Imperial Russian IRS.)
no subject
Sounds good to me!
The first friend to find an ancestor changing her name strongly suspected it was to do with rumours she'd been a conwoman!
no subject
no subject
I am glad you have that information.
If I have done the Google mapping right, your mother's grandparents were, well, not close, but not madly far away from there (roughly 130-375 miles).
I am beginning to feel it is an even smaller world than the usual Ashkenazi one.
no subject
no subject
I repeat my previous statement, only at louder volume. Seriously!
no subject
Wow! I'm glad you have access to so much more information than you thought.
no subject
Thank you! [edit] In both cases, I had to cross-reference a lot in order to be sure of having the right places, but the shifting of borders ironically helped. As part of her petition for naturalization, my great-grandmother had to renounce her allegiance to "Carol II King of Rumania." There were several candidates for "Chuten" or "Chuteen, Russia," but only one of them was located in the historical region of Bessarabia and part of Romania in 1936. My great-grandfather's "Nemerov, Russia" was narrowed down similarly.
no subject
no subject
*hugs*
no subject
Which I got asked this afternoon. "Around, I guess."
Peace in Europe is a thing people take more for granted than they should. My people left because they were done sending their sons to war in central Europe. Imagine our surprise when there was nowhere far enough to run.
no subject
How the hell did I miss this comment at the time?
*hugs*
no subject