What I want is to run and hope it falls away

[sovay]

The majority of my day so far has been emotionally and physically excruciating, but I want to appreciate spatch for listening to me speculate this morning on the subject of whether Voyager's Doctor is Jewish. Obviously the question itself presumes some biographical facts on the part of his creator-template, but I feel the odds are better than not in the case of an AI designer named Lewis Zimmerman who does most of his communicating via sarcasm: "Congratulations. The first trans-galactic phone call." So how does patrilineal descent work when it's photons? Fortunately, since I do not have the space in my life to explore the argument seriously, I am confident the answer is covered by either golem minhag or the same kind of fannishness that runs with the halachah of descent from Magneto. I did check rabbinical opinions on the Jewishness of robots and was entertained that professional-type people also think of Star Trek and whether a golem counts in a minyan. Personally I think that in the era of Zoom shivas and services, a sentient hologram would at least know how to dial in on time. Did this train of thought cross my mind in time to exploit it for Purimgifts? Nope. But it's one of the few things I did with my brain today that didn't make me miserable. And a package from minoanmiss arrived for my niece, who I will be seeing tomorrow. And that's really nice.

Comments

[nodrog]

… I like you.

[sovay]

… I like you.

Who doesn't think about these things?

[nodrog]

I am reminded of an SF story written some time in the 1950s, where a snowbird Jewish retiree couple in Southern California encounter a malevolent experimental robot that had killed its creator and was just getting started, and somehow the older couple manage to bash it out of commission - but the man has a thought, and puts it back together but not all the way, and writes a magic word on its forehead…  The story ends with the couple sitting on their porch talking family while their new golem cuts the grass.

[sovay]

The story ends with the couple sitting on their porch talking family while their new golem cuts the grass.

That's Avram Davidson's "The Golem"! I read it first in Jack Dann's Wandering Stars: An Anthology of Jewish Fantasy and Science Fiction (1974).

[sara]

He's totally a Jew. Like, it has absolutely never occurred to me that he was anything else?

[sovay]

He's totally a Jew. Like, it has absolutely never occurred to me that he was anything else?

Look, I think he's Jewish, but Star Trek has always been more about Space Jews than Actual Jews, so I appreciate the data point!

[selkie]

We decided at work some years ago that zombies did not count in a minyan because they were no longer b'tzelem elohim, but that golems do count because they are fashioned for/to life.
Look, there are reasons I don't quit my job and run screaming into a cornfield (chiefest being I don't run and I hate cornfields).

*sends hot sheep and hopefully some sort of fiction*

We talked about the Purim exchange and now... uh... Purim is almost here. TIME.

[sovay]

We decided at work some years ago that zombies did not count in a minyan because they were no longer b'tzelem elohim, but that golems do count because they are fashioned for/to life.

Huh. I agree with you about golems, no question. I'm trying to figure out why I feel reluctant about zombies when the idea of a dybbuk counting in a minyan gives me no pause at all. Does it really just come down to the neshome? Or would a zombie as conventionally defined be too impaired to be eligible, in the same way that I believe that being sufficiently shitfaced can disqualify a person under normal circumstances?

Look, there are reasons I don't quit my job and run screaming into a cornfield (chiefest being I don't run and I hate cornfields).

I'm glad to know it has a few compensations!

We talked about the Purim exchange and now... uh... Purim is almost here. TIME.

WHAT TIME.

[minoanmiss]

You think such magnificent thoughts. *delights*

I very much hope she likes the package contents!

[sovay]

You think such magnificent thoughts.

My brain does this if left to itself!

I very much hope she likes the package contents!

I think she's going to love them. Thank you!

[edit] A SUCCESS.

[kathmandu]

...I had never previously considered that Magneto might ever have had children. He doesn't seem like good husband material or good father material.

(I have followed the link and read the essay, so I understand now that's not quite the idea, but it was my first reaction when I read your commentary.)

[sovay]

(I have followed the link and read the essay, so I understand now that's not quite the idea, but it was my first reaction when I read your commentary.)

The family lives of Marvel characters are complicated. I believe he got the kids in a retcon.

[dhampyresa]

Until a recent retcon, Magneto was the (genetic) father of both Wanda and Pietro Maximoff. They were raised by a Romani couple, hence the last name. Pietro has a daughter (Luna Maximoff, she lives on the Moon). To make a very, very long story* short, Wanda had twins who were raised by other people: Billy Kaplan was raised by a Jewish family. Tommy Shepherd's family is never mentioned either way that I know of. Billy is married? Or possibly just engaged? to Billy Altman.

But now Magneto has been retconned as not being related to Wanda or Pietro or any of these people**, so his only (genetic) child is Lorna Dane, also raised by other people.

* It is very long and very bonkers, but details available on request.

** It's a movie rights issue. Magneto goes with the X-Men but Wanda and Pietro go with the Avengers (ex: Cap's Kooky Quartet) -- so they ended up with Pietro/Quicksilver in the X-Men movies and Wanda/Scarlet Witch in the Avengers movie.

Or at least that is the state of things as I understand it.

[pameladean]

I love this so much. And of course you are right. It seems so evident now that you mention it.

I hope a larger percentage of your day is pleasant and sweet tomorrow, but I am glad you did have this. And thank you for sharing it.

P.

[sovay]

I love this so much. And of course you are right. It seems so evident now that you mention it.

It took me years to notice Star Trek III: The Search for Spock (1984) was a dybbuk story. I was describing it one afternoon in 2009 when the penny finally dropped.

I hope a larger percentage of your day is pleasant and sweet tomorrow, but I am glad you did have this. And thank you for sharing it.

Thank you! And you're welcome. I was talking to spatch while unable to sleep and here we are.

[naraht]

That collection of rabbinical opinions on the Jewishness of robots is fantastic. I feel there's a need for a pamphlet of opinions on Jewish issues in SF, if such a thing doesn't exist already.

And this is interestingly timely because I've been pondering a situation in my own novel-in-progress. The premise is that two people are paired via a neural link – meaning that they develop a semi-shared consciousness and need to stay fairly close together, although they retain their individual outlook and personalities. One of my protagonists is Jewish and the other isn't. The question is whether both of them can be counted for a minyan, or only the Jewish one.

The obvious answer is "a neural link doesn't make you Jewish" but I am hoping I can at least make it a point of debate – and the residents of this far-off space colony do want the answer to be yes! I wonder whether it could be counted as a kind of ibbur? And there is maybe an aspect of Ruth and Naomi, "whither thou goest, I will go."

[sovay]

That collection of rabbinical opinions on the Jewishness of robots is fantastic. I feel there's a need for a pamphlet of opinions on Jewish issues in SF, if such a thing doesn't exist already.

I can't point to one off the top of my head, but I'd be shocked if it didn't. I've been on panels of that nature at conventions. You certainly get Jewish ideas explored in science fiction. Steven H. Silver, Valerie Frankel, and Michael Burstein all track these trends more critically than I do, but I'd recommend the novels and short fiction of Phyllis Gotlieb no matter what. Judaism runs through all of her work, but her short story "Tauf Aleph"—originally published in Jack Dann's More Wandering Stars (1981) and reprinted in her collections Son of the Morning and Other Stories (1983) and Blue Apes (1995)—is particularly notable in engaging explicitly with the question of who counts as a Jew and why, with a golem-robot mediating between the last human Jew and the aliens who desire to become the next generation.

One of my protagonists is Jewish and the other isn't. The question is whether both of them can be counted for a minyan, or only the Jewish one.

I agree with your obvious answer that they can't both count by virtue of the link alone—but if you lean into the idea of the link as a commitment akin to Ruth's to Naomi, then maybe it becomes a facilitating mechanism—although I would think that their semi-shared consciousness would count without question, and I really like your idea of treating the link analogously to a consensual form of possession. Is the far-off space colony having trouble finding enough people for a minyan? Or are there other reasons for wanting to include both halves of the link?

[julian]

*hug*, I say minimalistically.

[sovay]

*hug*, I say minimalistically.

*hug* back.

[tree_and_leaf]

Personally I think that in the era of Zoom shivas and services, a sentient hologram would at least know how to dial in on time.

Ah ha ha ha. *sobs*

[sovay]

Ah ha ha ha. *sobs*

selkie works a synagogue. I hear stories.

*hugs*

[choco_frosh]

I did check rabbinical opinions on the Jewishness of robots and was entertained that professional-type people also think of Star Trek and whether a golem counts in a minyan.
I'm more blown away (although maybe I should have expected it?) by the fact that people were speculating about whether robots could be Jewish in the 17th freakin' century.

[sovay]

I'm more blown away (although maybe I should have expected it?) by the fact that people were speculating about whether robots could be Jewish in the 17th freakin' century.

I think as soon as the concept existed, it was the obvious next question. It does make me happy about the tradition.

[ashlyme]

I like your brain.

[sovay]

I like your brain.

Thank you. When it's not too sleep-deprived to function, I like it, too!

[dhampyresa]

Sorry you day sucked *hugs*

[sovay]

Sorry you day sucked

Thank you.

*hugs*

[asakiyume]

So how does patrilineal descent work when it's photons?

Photonic beings and their rights are a thing later on in the series, but they never go into it as fully as they could.

[sovay]

Photonic beings and their rights are a thing later on in the series, but they never go into it as fully as they could.

I am increasingly gathering with Voyager that it hardly ever went into any of its worldbuilding as fully as it could, so I am enjoying what I can enjoy in it—which is a scattershot but surprisingly not small amount—and trying not to be twenty-five years too late frustrated with all the things it didn't do, especially since I have also gathered that under the circumstances of network micromanagement/showrunner conflict/writers' room in a sufficient state of chaos that it famously forgot a supporting character wasn't dead for seasons, it's kind of amazing that it didn't just suck across the board.

[skygiants]

I think he's a Jew, but I don't know whether he thinks he is, and I'd love to see an episode that digs into that.

[sovay]

I think he's a Jew, but I don't know whether he thinks he is, and I'd love to see an episode that digs into that.

Please consider this comment a formal request.