What I want is to run and hope it falls away

[sovay]

The majority of my day so far has been emotionally and physically excruciating, but I want to appreciate spatch for listening to me speculate this morning on the subject of whether Voyager's Doctor is Jewish. Obviously the question itself presumes some biographical facts on the part of his creator-template, but I feel the odds are better than not in the case of an AI designer named Lewis Zimmerman who does most of his communicating via sarcasm: "Congratulations. The first trans-galactic phone call." So how does patrilineal descent work when it's photons? Fortunately, since I do not have the space in my life to explore the argument seriously, I am confident the answer is covered by either golem minhag or the same kind of fannishness that runs with the halachah of descent from Magneto. I did check rabbinical opinions on the Jewishness of robots and was entertained that professional-type people also think of Star Trek and whether a golem counts in a minyan. Personally I think that in the era of Zoom shivas and services, a sentient hologram would at least know how to dial in on time. Did this train of thought cross my mind in time to exploit it for Purimgifts? Nope. But it's one of the few things I did with my brain today that didn't make me miserable. And a package from minoanmiss arrived for my niece, who I will be seeing tomorrow. And that's really nice.

Comments

[nodrog]

… I like you.

[nodrog]

I am reminded of an SF story written some time in the 1950s, where a snowbird Jewish retiree couple in Southern California encounter a malevolent experimental robot that had killed its creator and was just getting started, and somehow the older couple manage to bash it out of commission - but the man has a thought, and puts it back together but not all the way, and writes a magic word on its forehead…  The story ends with the couple sitting on their porch talking family while their new golem cuts the grass.

[sara]

He's totally a Jew. Like, it has absolutely never occurred to me that he was anything else?

[sovay]

The story ends with the couple sitting on their porch talking family while their new golem cuts the grass.

That's Avram Davidson's "The Golem"! I read it first in Jack Dann's Wandering Stars: An Anthology of Jewish Fantasy and Science Fiction (1974).

[sovay]

… I like you.

Who doesn't think about these things?

[nodrog]

Yes!  An unforgettable collection of stories - obviously!

[sovay]

He's totally a Jew. Like, it has absolutely never occurred to me that he was anything else?

Look, I think he's Jewish, but Star Trek has always been more about Space Jews than Actual Jews, so I appreciate the data point!

[sovay]

An unforgettable collection of stories - obviously!

It and its sequel volume More Wandering Stars (1981) were handily reprinted in the late '90's. I believe I did acquire my copies at Brandeis.

[nodrog]

One thing I liked about that story was how utterly unphased the couple were by this situation - to the point where the irate robot had to yell at them to even get their attention, which merely annoyed them… That's a cultural courage hard-earned.

[sara]

I mean I don't think he's super observant, because he's a golem and I think he's kind of self conscious about that.

[selkie]

We decided at work some years ago that zombies did not count in a minyan because they were no longer b'tzelem elohim, but that golems do count because they are fashioned for/to life.
Look, there are reasons I don't quit my job and run screaming into a cornfield (chiefest being I don't run and I hate cornfields).

*sends hot sheep and hopefully some sort of fiction*

We talked about the Purim exchange and now... uh... Purim is almost here. TIME.

[minoanmiss]

You think such magnificent thoughts. *delights*

I very much hope she likes the package contents!

[kathmandu]

...I had never previously considered that Magneto might ever have had children. He doesn't seem like good husband material or good father material.

(I have followed the link and read the essay, so I understand now that's not quite the idea, but it was my first reaction when I read your commentary.)

[pameladean]

I love this so much. And of course you are right. It seems so evident now that you mention it.

I hope a larger percentage of your day is pleasant and sweet tomorrow, but I am glad you did have this. And thank you for sharing it.

P.

[naraht]

That collection of rabbinical opinions on the Jewishness of robots is fantastic. I feel there's a need for a pamphlet of opinions on Jewish issues in SF, if such a thing doesn't exist already.

And this is interestingly timely because I've been pondering a situation in my own novel-in-progress. The premise is that two people are paired via a neural link – meaning that they develop a semi-shared consciousness and need to stay fairly close together, although they retain their individual outlook and personalities. One of my protagonists is Jewish and the other isn't. The question is whether both of them can be counted for a minyan, or only the Jewish one.

The obvious answer is "a neural link doesn't make you Jewish" but I am hoping I can at least make it a point of debate – and the residents of this far-off space colony do want the answer to be yes! I wonder whether it could be counted as a kind of ibbur? And there is maybe an aspect of Ruth and Naomi, "whither thou goest, I will go."

[sovay]

We decided at work some years ago that zombies did not count in a minyan because they were no longer b'tzelem elohim, but that golems do count because they are fashioned for/to life.

Huh. I agree with you about golems, no question. I'm trying to figure out why I feel reluctant about zombies when the idea of a dybbuk counting in a minyan gives me no pause at all. Does it really just come down to the neshome? Or would a zombie as conventionally defined be too impaired to be eligible, in the same way that I believe that being sufficiently shitfaced can disqualify a person under normal circumstances?

Look, there are reasons I don't quit my job and run screaming into a cornfield (chiefest being I don't run and I hate cornfields).

I'm glad to know it has a few compensations!

We talked about the Purim exchange and now... uh... Purim is almost here. TIME.

WHAT TIME.

[sovay]

You think such magnificent thoughts.

My brain does this if left to itself!

I very much hope she likes the package contents!

I think she's going to love them. Thank you!

[edit] A SUCCESS.

[sovay]

(I have followed the link and read the essay, so I understand now that's not quite the idea, but it was my first reaction when I read your commentary.)

The family lives of Marvel characters are complicated. I believe he got the kids in a retcon.

[sovay]

I mean I don't think he's super observant, because he's a golem and I think he's kind of self conscious about that.

I appear to have simultaneous responses of "I'm not super observant and selkie will tell you I'm 98% verifiably human" and "I've written ambivalent golems, I can dig it," but mostly I want the fic.

[sovay]

I love this so much. And of course you are right. It seems so evident now that you mention it.

It took me years to notice Star Trek III: The Search for Spock (1984) was a dybbuk story. I was describing it one afternoon in 2009 when the penny finally dropped.

I hope a larger percentage of your day is pleasant and sweet tomorrow, but I am glad you did have this. And thank you for sharing it.

Thank you! And you're welcome. I was talking to spatch while unable to sleep and here we are.

[sovay]

That collection of rabbinical opinions on the Jewishness of robots is fantastic. I feel there's a need for a pamphlet of opinions on Jewish issues in SF, if such a thing doesn't exist already.

I can't point to one off the top of my head, but I'd be shocked if it didn't. I've been on panels of that nature at conventions. You certainly get Jewish ideas explored in science fiction. Steven H. Silver, Valerie Frankel, and Michael Burstein all track these trends more critically than I do, but I'd recommend the novels and short fiction of Phyllis Gotlieb no matter what. Judaism runs through all of her work, but her short story "Tauf Aleph"—originally published in Jack Dann's More Wandering Stars (1981) and reprinted in her collections Son of the Morning and Other Stories (1983) and Blue Apes (1995)—is particularly notable in engaging explicitly with the question of who counts as a Jew and why, with a golem-robot mediating between the last human Jew and the aliens who desire to become the next generation.

One of my protagonists is Jewish and the other isn't. The question is whether both of them can be counted for a minyan, or only the Jewish one.

I agree with your obvious answer that they can't both count by virtue of the link alone—but if you lean into the idea of the link as a commitment akin to Ruth's to Naomi, then maybe it becomes a facilitating mechanism—although I would think that their semi-shared consciousness would count without question, and I really like your idea of treating the link analogously to a consensual form of possession. Is the far-off space colony having trouble finding enough people for a minyan? Or are there other reasons for wanting to include both halves of the link?

[naraht]

First of all, I felt a little bit guilty after writing this that you had been posting about having had an excruciating day and I immediately leapt in with a discussion of my novel! So I want to say that I have been thinking of you and I hope that you're able to find more diverting things to do with your brain.

Thank you for the book recommendations. I've read a couple of stories from Wandering Stars, the ones that are available online, and had been wondering whether to buy the whole collection. Or maybe just some Phyllis Gotlieb!

Is the far-off space colony having trouble finding enough people for a minyan?

Yes, it's a bit of a lazy trope but it allows me to play with the questions of the nature of the link and do a bit more about diaspora, both of which are major themes of the novel. My protagonists are just stopping by this settlement on their way back from an interstellar survey trip. (And there will be at least one of the locals saying "look, the Enlightenment was eight centuries ago now, can we not just pray without having to go through all of this?")

...although I would think that their semi-shared consciousness would count without question, and I really like your idea of treating the link analogously to a consensual form of possession.

Consensual possession for the purposes of making a minyan seems like the best approach. I did wonder whether a minyan counts the number of Jewish bodies or number of Jewish souls (in which case there are still not enough) but perhaps it's justifiable. I might post at some point in my own journal to gather further thoughts...

[julian]

*hug*, I say minimalistically.

[tree_and_leaf]

Personally I think that in the era of Zoom shivas and services, a sentient hologram would at least know how to dial in on time.

Ah ha ha ha. *sobs*

[selkie]

Can confirm, 98% verifiably human on visual, with a human pulse; can leyn Torah and plus if you take an average of their father (100%, could not regenerate lost appendages) and their mother (~89% but have never subjected to relevant pokery or analysis; suspect quarterly offerings wise, would not engage in riddle game, but I have taken her hospitality and would unhesitantly give it in return) the math basically tracks.