Rome is far off. You are not Rome

[sovay]

So the problem with me and lists is that I want to make them comprehensive. Therefore this is not a catalogue of all the fiction with classical settings that exists, or even all the fiction with classical settings I've read or own. It is an attempt at listing some of my favorites of the genre without falling down the sinkhole of completism. If you don't see your favorites, please feel free to name them in comments. It may be that I've accidentally left them out. It may be that my local library does not contain enough Naomi Mitchison. It may also be the case that I'm not sure I need to re-read all of The Bull from the Sea ever again. This endeavor brought on by recent discussion of Dorothy J. Heydt's Cynthia stories.

Genres considered for inclusion are historical fiction and historical fantasy, with a flexible exception for contemporary narratives in which the classical past plays a prominent part. I have tried to stay away from mythological retellings because otherwise we'll be here all day. Honorable mention at the end goes to alternate histories or secondary worlds drawn so strongly from classical history that they feel like it.

To explain the minimal organization in the list below: novels or stories in the same series are listed all on the same line; independent novels or stories by the same author are given their own carriage return; I've put links to stories online where they exist. There are almost certainly missing entries I'll wish I'd listed in the morning. I'm sleeping about three hours a night these days.

Julia August, "Elephants and Omnibuses" (Lackington's #2, 2014)

Robin W. Bailey, "Child of Orcus" (Sword and Sorceress, 1984)

Samuel R. Delany, Phallos (2004)

Gemma Files, "Sent Down" (The Worm in Every Heart, 2004)

Gemma Files, "Villa Locusta" (The Harrow 10.1, 2007)

Alan Garner, Red Shift (1973)

Théophile Gautier, "Arria Marcella: Souvenir de Pompéi" (La Revue de Paris, 1852; translated by Richard Holmes as "The Tourist" in My Fantoms, 1976)

Robert Graves, I, Claudius (1934)

H.D., Palimpsest (1926)

Dorothy J. Heydt, "Things Come in Threes" (Sword and Sorceress, 1984) and all succeeding Cynthia stories (Sword and Sorceress III—IV, VI, IX—X, XIII—XVII, XIX—XXI, 1986–2004)

Tom Holt, Goatsong (1989) and The Walled Orchard (1990)

Rudyard Kipling, Puck of Pook's Hill (1906)

Karen K. Kobylarz, "Cleopatra's Needle" (Paradox #5, 2004)

Ursula K. Le Guin, Lavinia (2008)

Tanith Lee, The Book of the Damned (1988) and The Book of the Beast (1988)

Tanith Lee, "Into Gold" (Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine 10.3, 1986; collected in Woman As Demons, 1989)

Tanith Lee, "Sirriamnis" (Unsilent Night, 1981; reprinted in The Gorgon and Other Beastly Tales, 1985)

Shweta Narayan, "Eyes of Carven Emerald" (Clockwork Phoenix 3, 2011)

John Maddox Roberts, SPQR (1990), The Sacrilege (1992), The Temple of the Muses (1992)

Mary Renault, The King Must Die (1958)

Mary Renault, The Last of the Wine (1956)

Mary Renault, The Mask of Apollo (1966)

Mary Renault, The Praise Singer (1978)

Steven Saylor, Roman Blood (1991), The Venus Throw (1995), The House of the Vestals (1997), A Gladiator Dies Only Once (2005)

Rosemary Sutcliff, The Eagle of the Ninth (1954)

Thomas Burnett Swann, Where Is the Bird of Fire? (1970)

Harry Turtledove, "Goddess for a Day" (Chicks in Chainmail, 1995)

Jill Paton Walsh, Farewell, Great King (1972)

Evangeline Walton, She Walks in Darkness (2013)

As for the novels not appearing in our history—

Avram Davidson, The Phoenix and the Mirror (1969)

Guy Gavriel Kay, Sailing to Sarantium (1998) and Lord of Emperors (2000)

Tanith Lee, Mortal Suns (2003)

Melissa Scott, A Choice of Destinies (1986)

Megan Whalen Turner, The Thief (1996), The Queen of Attolia (2000), The King of Attolia (2006), A Conspiracy of Kings (2010)

The other problem with putting together this list is that it made me realize I want to edit an anthology of short fiction set in the classical world—I know the reprints I would want to ask for; I would want to hold a reading period for new material—and even if I knew a publisher to pitch it to, this is not a project for which I have time right now.

And I still don't really have any stories where the Carthaginians come off positively. Cato the Censor and the Aeneid cast a long shadow. Does anyone know any?

Comments

[starlady]

I really liked Jo Graham's Black Ships, which retells the events of the Aeneid from a woman's point of view--I actually read it back to back with Lavinia and thought Graham came out better than LeGuin. She deals with Carthage by transposing it to Egypt, which actually makes a lot of sense in context, but the essential answer to your question is Carthago delenda est.

[sovay]

I really liked Jo Graham's Black Ships, which retells the events of the Aeneid from a woman's point of view--I actually read it back to back with Lavinia and thought Graham came out better than LeGuin.

Thank you! That sounds fascinating; I'll look for it.

She deals with Carthage by transposing it to Egypt, which actually makes a lot of sense in context, but the essential answer to your question is Carthago delenda est.

Yeah. Even Mary Gentle's fifteenth-century Carthaginians are Visigothic settlers who worship a heretical form of Christ. I thought this was the coolest thing on the planet when I read Ash: A Secret History (2000) for the first time in college; Carthage Ascendant was my favorite of the four American-edition books. Probably it still is, and as an alt-historical conceit, Visgothic Carthage is still really cool. But I have slightly more reservations about it these days.

[starlady]

I guess I never talked about it explicitly when I wrote up the books, but yeah--for me the whole thing with the Carthaginians cements the books as techno-Orientalist, as bizarre as that may sound in a C15th context. And the fact that it then turns out that the Carthaginians in Gentle's world are the literal truth of medieval views on Islam in ours (i.e. that it was a Christological heresy, as I'm sure you know) just made that even worse.

The books are still really cool, though.

[sovay]

The books are still really cool, though.

Oh, yeah. I love Florian. And I love Ash, which is very rare for me: I am almost never as interested in protagonists as I am in supporting characters. And the depth of the worldbuilding, and the way the initially artificial and potentially superfluous frame-story wraps around to become the other end of the narrative's time, and much of Gentle's language, even if it's a much less ornately written book than her previous novels. I love the entire religion of the Green Christ and the Mithraic echoes, which were there at exactly the right time in my life for me to feel delighted and deeply satisfied that someone else thought that mystery religions were too good to be lost to history as we know it. I do not regret loving that story. I just regret that she wrote the Carthaginians in some of the ways she did, because I can see they were such a irresistible alt-historical id-hook, but there are problems.

[starlady]

The stuff with the Green Christ was so awesome, and ditto on the Mithraic stuff. It was so cool to see someone just going for it and doing all that stuff--and I also loved the way that the story transformed from alt-historical fantasy to science fiction by the end. The books are great; the Carthaginians are really problematic; neither of those things cancels out the other.

[sovay]

and I also loved the way that the story transformed from alt-historical fantasy to science fiction by the end.

Yes! It starts as historical fiction, becomes historical fantasy, becomes alternate history, ends as hard science fiction. I really can't think of another novel that shifts through genres to that extent without becoming a radically different story, which Ash really doesn't: it's still comes down to a bunch of fifteenth-century mercenaries at the end, not spaceflight. I wish I liked anything she had written since half as well. At least I will always have Rats and Gargoyles and her short fiction to return to.

The books are great; the Carthaginians are really problematic; neither of those things cancels out the other.

Yep.

[genarti]

I nth the rec of Black Ships! I love it. Although, yes, Carthage is there transposed to Egypt and also delenda est.

This is not set in classical times at all, but have you read Kate Elliott's Cold Magic? (Followed by Cold Fire and Cold Steel, and now a completed trilogy as such.) It's set in an alternate... uh... early 19th century, more or less, in that that's the general tech level and women wear bulky dresses and there's a Napoleon analogue, but saying that implies a much closer analogy than the book actually has. The alternate history goes way back to Hannibal winning and Carthage staying a viable empire for much, much longer; there's an ice age still ongoing; the Mali Empire is a strong and privileged cultural force in Europe, although the empire itself fell to plague; etc, etc. Our heroine is part of an old Carthaginian trading house in alt-Britain. (Also there are intelligent dinosaur lawyers. Yes. The author designed the world with her adult kids, as I understand it, though she didn't co-write it with anyone, and there's a certain kitchen sink approach.) It doesn't really deal with Carthage qua Carthage, but still fascinating.

[sovay]

This is not set in classical times at all, but have you read Kate Elliott's Cold Magic?

No! I have heard of the series, but only so as to recognize the title; I did not know, for example, that there were intelligent dinosaur lawyers. How does that work with the rest of the alternate history?

Our heroine is part of an old Carthaginian trading house in alt-Britain.

Cool. What's the religion like?

[genarti]

I did not know, for example, that there were intelligent dinosaur lawyers. How does that work with the rest of the alternate history?

Keep in mind that it's been a while since I read them and I haven't read the third (though I intend to): as I recall, it's not explained in great detail, although possibly I've just forgotten. It may be explained more in the third book? They're called trolls, but they're sentient troodon descendents (with feathers). (There's also magic and a world of spirits, and some creatures and people who come from there; it's just that the trolls are not among those people.)

What's the religion like?

Polytheistic. There's no Christianity analogue that I recall; if there is one it's not dominant, at any rate. Presumably there's Judaism, but I don't remember if there are any Jewish characters onscreen. (In the second book a lot of the action shifts over to the Caribbean, where the Taino are a dominant culture in the areas the action takes place.) Our heroine is religious in the sense that it's culturally important to her and she prays to Blessed Tanit fairly often. My memory is that, while she does believe, religion is a background she takes for granted rather than a primary focus of her attention. In terms of ritual, I don't remember in enough detail to be sure of answering. The Carthaginian/Phoenician ethnic group she's part of is definitely not the dominant cultural force, but is a relatively numerous minority. (IIRC, the dominant ethnic groups in Britain are Celtic and Mali.)

[yhlee]

I also liked Black Ships a lot, although I don't know much about the Aeneid. I cried a lot. :p

[starlady]

I cried a lot too. Multiple times, even.

[thinking out loud] I don't know whether I'd even say it's worth reading the Aeneid--there's a lot about the ending that's interesting for scholars of Roman history, but the best book of the whole poem is Book 2, when Aeneas tells Dido the story of the fall of Troy, and you can get a pretty good digest of the problem of the ending by reading the chapter on the book in David Denby's book on the Columbia great books course. Virgil subjugating his art to destiny, and Aeneas along with it, in the latter half of the poem is much less interesting than the Homeric epics, imo. I'm also not wild about the Fitzgerald translation; I would definitely recommend Fagles.

[yhlee]

I was a waterworks throughout most of that book. Wonderful stuff.

I've been told by more than one person that there's no really good English translation of the Aeneid (although that makes me wonder now, is there a good one in French? French would be easy enough for me to pick up again). Unfortunately, first-year Latin doesn't get me very far and I'm too stupid now to attempt to learn more of it.

[sovay]

(although that makes me wonder now, is there a good one in French? French would be easy enough for me to pick up again).

I have no idea about translations of the Aeneid in French, but I think you should ask! That's a really clever idea. (And then let me know.)

[sovay]

I don't know whether I'd even say it's worth reading the Aeneid

I think it is always worth reading the Aeneid, if nothing else because I always prefer reading a source myself to relying on someone else's summary of it, but I have the advantage of Latin, which is necessary in my case because I don't like any of the available translations. I'm most familiar with Fitzgerald because we were given him in high school to supplement the books we didn't read in translation, but I prefer his Iliad and his Odyssey. There's a relatively recent plain-spoken Aeneid by Sarah Ruden which is much more faithful than any of the usual suspects, but it needs to be combined with a more poetic translation: it strips out a lot of the weirdness of the words. I know you did not love Lavinia, but I was oddly sorry Le Guin never attempted at least a partial translation of the Aeneid as well as a retelling. She seemed to be a tonal match for it, which almost no one is.

[starlady]

So, I actually did my bachelor's in classics and did a field on comparative empires for my PhD quals that included ancient Rome--my Latin and Greek are rusty at this point, but I did read about one-third of the Aeneid in the original back in the day, including the best parts. :D

Which is why I agree with you about the lack of good English translations, with the exception of Fagles because I haven't read that one yet. (I used to get into arguments with people in my department about Fitzgerald because they liked him for being literal and I thought it was a bad choice as a translation, which is illustrative.) I think Fagles is better at sounding literary and comprehensible as far as the Homeric epics go, though I only read the Iliad in the original. What I should really probably do is read the Fagles version with LeGuin's interpretation in mind, because I agree with you that she clearly gets Vergil really well.

[sovay]

So, I actually did my bachelor's in classics and did a field on comparative empires for my PhD quals that included ancient Rome

Nice! What were the other empires?

(I used to get into arguments with people in my department about Fitzgerald because they liked him for being literal and I thought it was a bad choice as a translation, which is illustrative.)

. . . Fitzgerald is not literal. You can't use him as any kind of guide to the original grammar. You can't even sometimes use him as a guide to the original image; he elaborates. His lines always run over.

I think Fagles is better at sounding literary and comprehensible as far as the Homeric epics go, though I only read the Iliad in the original.

Usually I tell people to read Lattimore and Fitzgerald together: Lattimore is faithful and archaic, Fitzgerald is vivid and imagistic; if you read them by turns, you can approximate the dimensions of Homeric Greek. I've bounced off every one of Fagles' translations that I've tried, which I am faintly sorry about, but neither his Iliad nor his Odyssey nor his Aeneid works for me. It may be that I don't like his English, which just puts the kibosh on everything.

What I should really probably do is read the Fagles version with LeGuin's interpretation in mind, because I agree with you that she clearly gets Vergil really well.

I like that plan. Let me know how it works out!

[sovay]

I also liked Black Ships a lot, although I don't know much about the Aeneid.

It is on my used-book-hunt list now.

[vera_l]

I think well of the Gillian Bradshaw I've read, and am especially fond of The Beacon at Alexandria.

Thank you for this post; I clearly need to look up a lot of the ones I'm unfamiliar with, based on the company they're keeping.

[sovay]

Thank you for this post; I clearly need to look up a lot of the ones I'm unfamiliar with, based on the company they're keeping.

You're welcome! I hope you enjoy them.

It has become apparent that I need to read more Gillian Bradshaw.

[skygiants]

Would one count Elizabeth Wein's Aksum books, set in sixth-century Ethiopia (except for the one that's Arthuriana?) I mean, I would, but I tend to think of the Aksum books/the Attolia books/Spellcoats all together in the same genre.

[sovay]

Would one count Elizabeth Wein's Aksum books, set in sixth-century Ethiopia (except for the one that's Arthuriana?)

I had them on this list originally and then removed them on account of being unsure if the sixth century was too far out of the classical era, despite containing all sorts of Roman hangovers. Mary Stewart's The Crystal Cave (1970) suffered the same fate.

I mean, I would, but I tend to think of the Aksum books/the Attolia books/Spellcoats all together in the same genre.

That makes a certain amount of sense. I align them mentally with Mary Stewart, see above, but that's partly because The Winter Prince (1993) remains one of my touchstone Arthurian novels and I am still waiting patiently for The Sword Dance, dammit.

[nineweaving.livejournal.com]

I want to edit an anthology of short fiction set in the classical world

O my! I would read that to ribbons.

Not Jo Walton's Platonic series?

You might like some of Guy Davenport's pastorals in Eclogues. He writes in the acknowledgments:

"'The Daimon of Sokrates' is a kind of translation of Plutarch's Perí toû Sokrátous Daimoníou; the flatness of its text is meant to imitate Plutarch's starkness and narrative simplicity. I have added embellishments from the fragments that survive of his lost life of Epameinondas, his life of Pelopidas, and from other sources, when I could add a detail of manners or an object which Plutarch took for granted.

"'Idyll' derives from Theokritos' Carmen V. 'The Trees at Lystra' from Acts XIV:6--20. I am indebted also to Stanley Spencer's unfinished 'Christ Preaching at the Cookham Regatta', Montaigne's Sur des Vers de Vergile (Essais III:5), and Diogenes Laertius' Lives of the Philosophers."

Here's a swatch:

"Mesoroposthonippidon am I called, a painter of jugs, an owl to Athenai, a straw in the wind, a ratcatching mustard dog of the stables and ordinaries, a narrow-hipped, meter-shanked, wide-teated boy with miscella eyes, an alley tom, an urchin none too nice to sit among the pyes in the shining dirt with that long-shadowed man Diogenes.

"My Eros Astraddle a Goose has sold well and has been copied in Korinthos. Our pottery got its reputation for its scenes from the Iliad on tableware, I can do an Akhilleus Bewailing Patroklos in my sleep ... We have a backroom run of ithyphallika popular with the fast sporting set and the lecturers up at the Akademia.

"I ... am ... the pillow fellow of the odd-eyed Esperessa. A green eye and a brown she has, and is Aphrodita’s very own daughter, sweet as a crush of honey in the comb..."

Nine

[sovay]

O my! I would read that to ribbons.

Thank you. I really would need a publisher, and money, and a lot of time.

Not Jo Walton's Platonic series?

I bounced unexpectedly hard off The Just City. I'm willing to give it another shot when the series is complete, just in case some of the elements that didn't work for me turn out to be narrative long games.

You might like some of Guy Davenport's pastorals in Eclogues.

I've never read any of these! I love the prose. Thank you.

[nineweaving.livejournal.com]

I've never read any of these! I love the prose. Thank you.

His essay on "Joyce's Forest of Symbols" in The Geography of the Imagination lies at the roots of Moonwise.

Nine

[thanate.livejournal.com]

No Gillian Bradshaw?

[negothick.livejournal.com]

Judith Tarr and Harry Turtledove. Household Gods (2000), one of the most vivid pictures of Classical daily living, even if it is a time-travel, switching bodies fantasy.

[sovay]

Household Gods (2000), one of the most vivid pictures of Classical daily living, even if it is a time-travel, switching bodies fantasy.

I tend to bounce off Harry Turtledove—the story listed above is an exception, partly because it involves a historical incident I'd read about in Herodotos and partly because it involves kneeing a satyr in the balls—so can you tell me more of what this one is like?

[negothick.livejournal.com]

Thanks to Judy Tarr, the prose is not vintage Turtledove. A woman is transported to (I think) first century CE through an artifact. Once there, though, she finds her way as a tavern keeper and has a romance with a tanner. It's unexpectedly visceral and gritty.

[sovay]

No Gillian Bradshaw?

I have only read The Dragon and the Thief (1991) and The Land of Gold (1992), which you're right should have gone on this list. What else classical has she written?

[thanate.livejournal.com]

Here's the list from her website: http://www.gbradshaw.net/historicalfiction

I am fondest of Island of Ghosts, which is Roman Britain from the viewpoint of Sarmatian cavalry. Jo Walton has a tor.com piece about why she likes The Beacon at Alexandria best. The Sand Reckoner has a lovely young Archimedes. Some are slighter than others, but except for the two British Civil War ones they're all somewhere in the classical era and stand-alone, so starting with whatever your library has is unlikely to steer you wrong.

Having begun with Bradshaw, I suspect that the reason I have never been able to get into Mary Renault properly is that I want them to be more Bradshaw, and they aren't.

ETA: She also did another kids' book called Beyond the North Wind, based off Herodotus's griffons & Arimaspians.

[sovay]

I am fondest of Island of Ghosts, which is Roman Britain from the viewpoint of Sarmatian cavalry. Jo Walton has a tor.com piece about why she likes The Beacon at Alexandria best. The Sand Reckoner has a lovely young Archimedes.

All of that sounds very promising to me. Thank you!

Having begun with Bradshaw, I suspect that the reason I have never been able to get into Mary Renault properly is that I want them to be more Bradshaw, and they aren't.

Is there something about Renault that is specifically not Bradshaw in a way that has always been a sticking point?

[ethelmay.livejournal.com]

I dearly love The Beacon at Alexandria, and can't believe you haven't read it. I think Bradshaw is a little bit more like Sutcliff than Renault.

[sovay]

I think Bradshaw is a little bit more like Sutcliff than Renault.

I'm looking forward to her. I think my childhood library must not have had her classical novels, because I loved the two Egyptian ones and feel fairly confident that if I'd seen anything else on the shelf next to them, I'd have taken it home.

[ethelmay.livejournal.com]

They would have been in different sections, most likely. The Egyptian books were in the children's section at our library (back when they had them, which they don't any longer, grrr).

[thanate.livejournal.com]

Is there something about Renault that is specifically not Bradshaw in a way that has always been a sticking point?

I'm not sure; with most of the Renault I've tried I didn't get beyond a chapter or two, so it may just be a slightly more modern style and pacing. If the first half of The King Must Die is representative, Bradshaw also does a lot better by her female characters.

[sovay]

If the first half of The King Must Die is representative, Bradshaw also does a lot better by her female characters.

I wouldn't be surprised. The King Must Die is not quite representative in that it has more blatant problems with gender than most of Renault's novels—she builds male-female conflict so deeply into the mythos of her imagined sort-of-Dark-sort-of-Bronze Age—but she's rarely great with female characters; the philosopher Axiothea in The Mask of Apollo is an exception, albeit an awesome one. I still love her books: she was one of my very early and lasting images of the ancient world, no matter how inaccurate or problematic some of her ideas have turned out to be. But especially if you encountered her first as an adult, I can see the general absence of female characters with agency being difficult to get past.

I recommend against trying The Bull from the Sea. I can cope with having noticed the author's issues with women in her other novels, but that one and Funeral Games caused real problems on recent re-read.

[thanate.livejournal.com]

Perhaps I will give The Mask of Apollo another try, then, and not feel guilty about failing to appreciate the others.

[ethelmay.livejournal.com]

The Last of the Wine was my favorite for a long while. I like The Mask of Apollo, but never really get the Dion bits, which means the story as a whole isn't as much good to me as it might be. I should try The Persian Boy again. I was enthralled with it at one point, but now all I can remember of it is some of the most horrible bits. I definitely don't get on with Theseus or the other Alexander ones.

[asakiyume.livejournal.com]

I love your mix and variety!

I have to point out that some of the very best fics I've read are for Eagle of the Ninth. I've enjoyed them tremendously, and I haven't even read the book. They're by osprey_archer, and I'm wondering if there's one link where you can find all of them. I know they're at Archive of our Own.... Yes! Here they are. I especially liked this one, because foxes and transformations.

[sovay]

I love your mix and variety!

Thank you! I know there's a lot out there I haven't read; I chose these mostly by the frequency with which I return to them or the vividness with which I remember them after years.

Yes! Here they are. I especially liked this one, because foxes and transformations.

Thank you! I will read these directly.

There is a lot of very good classical fic on AO3, but I feel like that could be a post of its own.

[edit] I like your illustration for the fox-story! I like that it is her aunt's voice that brings Cottia back.

The rest are a very good set; thank you for linking me to them.

[asakiyume.livejournal.com]

Yay! I'm glad you liked them. (And thanks re: illo)

Osprey Archer also has a set of fics relating to Captain America. I haven't plunged into them because I haven't gotten into the Marvel universe (and yet that didn't stop me from reading the Eagle fics, so I think maybe I have more active resistance to the Marvel universe, though I don't know why). Anyway, I mention it because she's a great writer, and I know you *have* gotten into the Marvel universe.

[handful-ofdust.livejournal.com]

That's some damn fine company to find myself in, so thanks for that! In related news, I too really loved "Child of Orcus." Female gladiators fighting their way through hell for the win!

[sovay]

That's some damn fine company to find myself in, so thanks for that!

You're welcome! I really like "Sent Down" and I really like "Villa Locusta."

In related news, I too really loved "Child of Orcus." Female gladiators fighting their way through hell for the win!

It's the only story I've ever read by Robin W. Bailey; it makes me feel very positively toward the author. It must have been the first place I read about female gladiators, too.

[larryhammer]

Not Claudius the God?

---L.

[sovay]

Not Claudius the God?

I don't like it as much!

[larryhammer]

Fair enough. I like it, but agreed, not quite as much.

---L.