sovay | There are no stars at all for some of us

Hmm, well, there's that Chaz Brenchley fella: his early thrillers are not reliable in this regard - he notoriously said that no one gets a free pass, into or out of his books - but the epic fantasies, The Devil in the Dust et seq or Bridge of Dreams et seq, those certainly feature gay characters who don't die. Also that Daniel Fox person, Dragon in Chains et seq: you have to wait a while, but there they are. Not dying.

that Chaz Brenchley fella: his early thrillers are not reliable in this regard - he notoriously said that no one gets a free pass, into or out of his books

I have enjoyed many books where people of various sexualities don't make it to the endnotes. (I love

strange_selkie's A Verse from Babylon and no one gets out of that novel alive, lesbian protagonists and supporting heterosexuals included.) I just finished reading a novel I was quite enjoying and then the sole queer character was killed—because of their sexuality—in an act of heroic self-sacrifice—and I didn't throw the book across the room, but it was just a tiny little gift-wrapped package of tropes I hate. So I thought I'd try something different, thanks.

but the epic fantasies, The Devil in the Dust et seq or Bridge of Dreams et seq, those certainly feature gay characters who don't die. Also that Daniel Fox person, Dragon in Chains et seq: you have to wait a while, but there they are. Not dying.

Thank you for this wholly disinterested recommendation!

Two widely disparate books are the only ones that occur to me: The Mask of Apollo, by Mary Renault, which is notable in that the onstage deaths happen mostly to characters who are understood as het, or whose sexuality we don't know. Meanwhile all the characters who are explicitly gay/coded as gay survive the book just fine, if I remember correctly.

The other one is The Silver Metal Lover, in which Gay Best Friend is kind of one-dimensionally campy but does make it to the end of the book alive and well after having had a sex life and all.

Oh, wait--Francesca Lia Block's books have a lot of gay/bi characters who have a very good track record of surviving to the end of the book and getting on with their lives. There are one or two minor characters who are tragic and victimized and melodramatic, but the mainstays are Dirk and Duck from the Weetzie Bat series, and the title characters from Violet and Claire, and most of the characters in the short stories in Girl Goddess #9.

I recognize that a lot of people find Block insufferable, but I have a deep and old love for her work in general, and I can still remember particularly how weird it felt when I read Witch Baby as a kid and there was a same-sex couple who were reasonably well-adjusted people and had a good relationship and didn't die.

Tom and Carl from the Wizards books by Diane Duane--well, I know they're secondary mentor characters, but it would have been easy for Duane to kill one or both of them and send the protagonists out for revenge. Instead of which, they're still standing while many other secondary characters have bitten the dust.

I would have used the word "queer" for convenience in the above comments, except that I'm uncomfortable using reclaimed slurs. Mind you, I'm not saying this to shut you or anyone else down. But I feel weird about it when it comes to me using the term. On one hand, it's such a handy blanket term when "gay" would be too specific. On the other hand I don't want to sound like I'm using an insult/a slur/speech that I'm not entitled to; also, I've spent too much time around people who used it as a slur. So I'm conflicted. Do you ever feel this conflict?

Heh. I could make a case that I am indeed disinterested, as I shall certainly not see a penny from any investment you might choose to make in those titles - but nah, let's not bother.

Later in the year there will be a collection of my gay-themed short stories, in which some characters don't die. Indeed, one is apparently incapable of dying, despite the best efforts of several stories. Though another balances that by dying again and again, in story after story.

Duane's Three Kingdoms stories (incl. the 'Door Into' books) also feature quiltbag folk who live remarkably happy lives - Door Into Sunset rounded out with everyone getting married.

(not that I've forgiven Door Into Shadow for using [trigger warning trauma] as a character motivator. But it features some of the best dragons ever so that makes me keep it around.)

I sent you Bridgers some time ago, did I not? It does not really count as a book, being unpublished.

which is notable in that the onstage deaths happen mostly to characters who are understood as het, or whose sexuality we don't know. Meanwhile all the characters who are explicitly gay/coded as gay survive the book just fine, if I remember correctly.

The Mask of Apollo is my favorite novel by Mary Renault. I have a talismanic copy—it's not the one from the used book store in Provincetown, because I gave that one to Dr. Fiveash, but it's a library discard I've had since high school. I keep vaguely wanting to write a poem about Axiothea, but I'd need to differentiate her from Renault's version. There's very little known about her historically.

The other one is The Silver Metal Lover, in which Gay Best Friend is kind of one-dimensionally campy but does make it to the end of the book alive and well after having had a sex life and all.

Clovis! I forgive him a lot for being seventeen and nowhere near as world-weary as he tries to sound. He's getting much better at friendship by the end of the book.

but the mainstays are Dirk and Duck from the Weetzie Bat series, and the title characters from Violet and Claire, and most of the characters in the short stories in Girl Goddess #9.

Okay, that's cool. I've read much less Francesca Lia Block than most people in my age/reading bracket, so thanks for the recommendations!

Tom and Carl from the Wizards books by Diane Duane--well, I know they're secondary mentor characters, but it would have been easy for Duane to kill one or both of them and send the protagonists out for revenge. Instead of which, they're still standing while many other secondary characters have bitten the dust.

Tom and Carl rock. And since I haven't read any of the novels past A Wizard Abroad, I'm glad to know they're still around!

So I'm conflicted. Do you ever feel this conflict?

I describe myself as queer; it's accurate. I also answer to bisexual. I am interested in people and that includes genderqueer people, but bi erasure is a thing and let's not have any more of it, thanks.

[edited for runaway italics]

Edited 2014-05-16 00:42 (UTC)

I sent you Bridgers some time ago, did I not? It does not really count as a book, being unpublished.

You did and it totally counts! Just not as a book I can recommend to other people or take down off my shelf rather than my hard drive.

Duane's Three Kingdoms stories (incl. the 'Door Into' books) also feature quiltbag folk who live remarkably happy lives - Door Into Sunset rounded out with everyone getting married.

I need to re-read those. I haven't since I was in . . . middle school? The first three Young Wizards and The Book of Night with Moon moved here with me, but the rest of the Duanes were my mother's and remained in Lexington. Good call!

I could make a case that I am indeed disinterested, as I shall certainly not see a penny from any investment you might choose to make in those titles - but nah, let's not bother.

. . . Are they all out of print? Or is there some publishing tomfoolery I don't know about?

Indeed, one is apparently incapable of dying, despite the best efforts of several stories. Though another balances that by dying again and again, in story after story.

Heh. I am looking forward to Bitter Waters; I know they're not themed similarly past the title and I presume something of the style, but Blood Waters was great.

I'm thinking particularly of Stealing Fire, but Jo Graham's Numinous World series is really good for that, overall: there's usually a couple of queer characters and at least one genderfluid character in the recurrent reincarnational melange, and no one ever dies just for their sexuality. If they die, they die because of the way their other characteristics interact with the time and situation.

(You could also make a case for Tom Ripley, who survives all his adventures without ever seeming to completely realize his own essential queerness, let alone the fact that he seems to have unwittingly married an equally stealth lesbian who can perform heterosexually when called upon. One way or the other, I find him hilariously entertaining, and I love the fact that Patricia Highsmith allows him to get away unscathed.)

The Northern Girl by Elizabeth Lynn

Cyteen by C.J. Cherryh (lousy things happen to the gay characters, but hey, lousy things happen to almost everyone in that book)

Don't know whether you want manga, but here:

The manga series Samurai Deeper Kyo (both negative and positive portrayals of gay people; the most prominent of them is still alive and leading a productive, fairly contented life at the end, as part of a community)

The (short) manga series Antique Bakery

The manga series FAKE

I describe myself as queer; it's accurate. I also answer to bisexual.

I'd figured that was the case. I think I didn't word my question very well. What I was trying to ask was, "Does it bother you that 'queer' used to be a slur/still is a slur in the mouths of some people?" I'm trying to figure out if it's OK for me to refer to people/characters as queer, or if I'm going to sound clueless or like a bigot if I do that.

One way or the other, I find him hilariously entertaining, and I love the fact that Patricia Highsmith allows him to get away unscathed.

I noticed on re-read a few years ago that one of the villains of Mary Stewart's The Moon-Spinners (1962) is strongly coded as gay and it doesn't have anything to do with his being a jewel thief. I found I liked that very much. His name is Tony Gamble, which he makes a disarming joke of—Gamble by name, gamble by nature; he has faintly camp manners and moves as economically as a dancer, but instead he's a jack-of-all-trades at a new hotel in a small village on Crete. He's graceful and humorous and he's the one the author allows to get away, facetiously promising to send the heroine a postcard from the Kara Bugaz. Her cousin thinks he never will, but I like to think he sent one from somewhere.

And Mary Stewart just died, at a very respectable age, but I am still going to mourn her.

I'm thinking particularly of Stealing Fire, but Jo Graham's Numinous World series is really good for that, overall: there's usually a couple of queer characters and at least one genderfluid character in the recurrent reincarnational melange, and no one ever dies just for their sexuality.

Awesome. I haven't read anything by Graham, despite knowing that she's written at least one classical novel. Reincarnational melange?

In each book in the series, the characters are essentially the same people reborn into different bodies. So the person who was a female prophet/priestess in Black Ships becomes the male slave-turned-soldier of Stealing Fire, then becomes one of Cleopatra's handmaidens in Hand of Isis...and all the people around this person are also the same. Their friend becomes their parent, their lover becomes their nemesis, etc. Recognizable yet different, the core the same, everything else changed.

I have read none of these! Thank you.

(lousy things happen to the gay characters, but hey, lousy things happen to almost everyone in that book)

(That's fair. See above to

desperance about A Verse from Babylon.)

Don't know whether you want manga, but here

Will totally read manga. I should hit up my cousins for recommendations in that department, too.

Their friend becomes their parent, their lover becomes their nemesis, etc. Recognizable yet different, the core the same, everything else changed.

What a fascinating conceit. I will have to check these out.

It's not that they are out of print, tho' some are; it's just that sales hereafter will never pay off the advances, so it really makes no difference. *sighs heavily*

I hope you enjoy Bitter Waters. People want to tell me it's a good collection.

Oh! Oh! A Different Light. also by Elizabeth Lynn! Okay, gay character dies - but not for being gay. And it was the first SF novel I read where being gay was just, y'know, kinda normal really. I loved that...

I'm trying to figure out if it's OK for me to refer to people/characters as queer, or if I'm going to sound clueless or like a bigot if I do that.

I can't answer that question categorically. I can tell you that I won't assume you have suddenly transmuted into the Christian right if you use the word around me. There's always "quiltbag."

And it was the first SF novel I read where being gay was just, y'know, kinda normal really. I loved that...

I will look for it.

(My copy of Lynn's The Woman Who Loved the Moon and Other Stories is missing! I just glanced up for it and nothing. Dammit. I am compiling a list of books that didn't unpack with me here and it's depressing . . .)

I want to tell you it's a good collection, and am looking forward to being in a position to do so. It has the BEST cover (even better at big print size)!

Mercedes Lackey may not be what I call quality writing (just a guilty pleasure), but her Valdemar books have several queer characters, a few of whom don't die. The Vanyel triology involves 3 queer characters, 2 die (1 in book 1, 1 in book 3), the other lives to a ripe old age- the deaths have nothing to do with their sexuality, though. The Winds and Storms trilogies have another queer character- Firesong (and a queer supporting character at the end) who doesn't die either. In fact, she does the "here's a pair or trio of queer supporting characters" thing in a variety of her books.

There's also the entire social structure of the planet O, in some of Ursula K. LeGuin's short stories (I think in A Fisherman of the Inland Sea)- where a marriage is 4 people, two men, two women, and each person is supposed to be sexually involved with one person of each gender (trying to summarize briefly).

There are no stars at all for some of us

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