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I remember how they took you down

I need to start writing things down again. I seem to have slid back into the state where I consider all my thought processes pointless. I am curious to try—not Twittering, but posting more of the stray ideas that cross my mind, writings that strike me, meme-answers that I owe friends from months back, just to see what I have at the end of the day. I'm sure a substantial amount of trivia, but probably not as much as I believe. Meanwhile, I am off to watch another batch of Avatar. This post brought to you by the thoughts Can anyone recommend novels by Charles Williams?, What I wouldn't have given to see Ernest Thesiger play Andrew Ketterley, and My God, I just cut my tongue on a cough drop.

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I'm in favor of you doing this, definitely. Here, on Twitter, whereever. If you do end up recording thoughts someplace other than LJ, I hope you'll tell us so we can follow along.

Thought processes may not have much point but they can be interesting all the same--and that's kind of a point, right?

It's possible to get Twitter to cross-post to LJ as well, though I'd still advocate sticking to one program.

*nods* Both 140-char cap Twitter and medium-length Tumblr (ostensibly meant for shinies, or found shinies) will cross-post to LJ. I too would suggest remaining consolidated, however: everything has tasty RSS/Atom, but it means increasingly that people crunch feeds elsewhere, which can thin community.

Here, on Twitter, whereever.

There is no danger that I'll get a Twitter account. I have written twenty-five pages where five were required; I was not made for forty-character updates.

Thought processes may not have much point but they can be interesting all the same--and that's kind of a point, right?

I'm working on making myself believe this again . . .

I have written twenty-five pages where five were required --and this is why I love LJ! Plenty of space to write as much as you like.

I'm working on making myself believe this again Believe it [and can belief be commanded or demanded... history says no, but that doesn't stop people trying...]

I find what you write always interesting!

Jot!

Nine

Jot!

I'm trying!

Would celluloid cuffs help? Or a notebook?

Nine

The only Charles Williams I've ever read is /Many Dimensions/, which is conceptually brilliant but has somewhat unconvincing characters.

HOW do you cut your tongue on a cough drop??

I've done this, too! Sometimes a piece becomes very sharp via uneven erosion. :(

HOW do you cut your tongue on a cough drop??

One side melts into a sharp edge. Then you swear a lot.

The only Charles Williams I've ever read is /Many Dimensions/, which is conceptually brilliant but has somewhat unconvincing characters.

In both respects: how so?

The only female character is too conventional, and too perfect, to be believable. That quasi-detective feels like he walked out of Chesterton. The non-westerners are stereotyped; the 'bad' characters are the only ones whose thought processes we really get a sense of. All in all, you get the impression that the whole novel is just written as something to hang the philosophy, theology, and speculative sci-fi off; as it is, the novel hangs on these like a wet garment: saggy, damp, and showing what's behind it (some of which is rather interesting, some offputting) all too plainly. Which is why I think *I* should try reading his theology, instead.

All in all, you get the impression that the whole novel is just written as something to hang the philosophy, theology, and speculative sci-fi off; as it is, the novel hangs on these like a wet garment: saggy, damp, and showing what's behind it (some of which is rather interesting, some offputting) all too plainly.

Ouch. Thanks. Maybe I will also try his theology . . .

When I read War in Heaven I had to get it out of my house afterwards.

When I read War in Heaven I had to get it out of my house afterwards.

Elaborate? My curiosity is based on seeing him classed with Sayers, Chesterton, Tolkien, Lewis, etc.; I'll take warning-offs as well as recommendations.

He's very effective at creating an atmosphere of spiritual corruption (hi, Claudius!). However, I think he was less interested in conventional narrative than in exploring Christian believers' spiritual experience. That is, he's not like Tolkien in the same way that The Pilgrim's Progress is not like On the Road. If you don't share his views and read the books as straight fiction I think you would find them intriguing and sometimes memorable but ultimately unsatisfying.

You could write a poem or two, based on some of these swirling thoughts of yours--maybe even send one my way.

Er, sorry. I went from constructive to selfish. :-)

Er, sorry. I went from constructive to selfish.

*snerk*

I shall take it under advisement . . .

*grin*

I read Descent Into Hell in university, and got a really great quote from it, but otherwise can't recall much. I do think he has dicey issues with women, though.

I do think he has dicey issues with women, though.

I still think I have a moral imperative to read anything called Descent into Hell . . .

"All Hallows' Eve" is probably the best of his books, according to me. They're all wildly uneven, but All Hallows' Eve has a large number of good parts. I should warn you that it has anti-Semitism and the sort of religious jingoism that didn't bother me in C. S. Lewis but does get on my nerves coming from Williams. However, the clever ideas and good lines are well-done enough that you might enjoy it nonetheless. If you do read it, I'd be interested to hear what you think.

There's one called "The Place of the Lion", where Platonic ideals of animals appear in a small town and menace the villagers. That one was kind of weak, but it had a nice feeling of a religious monster movie. Help! God is stalking the earth! He looks like a giant lion and some butterflies!

They're all wildly uneven, but All Hallows' Eve has a large number of good parts. I should warn you that it has anti-Semitism and the sort of religious jingoism that didn't bother me in C. S. Lewis but does get on my nerves coming from Williams.

Understood. Thanks for both the recommendation and the warning.

Help! God is stalking the earth! He looks like a giant lion and some butterflies!

I saw that one summarized on Wikipedia: I am considering it for the batshit value alone.

Your thought processes are never pointless, but by all means post the things of which you think. We're looking forward to seeing them.

No idea about Charles Williams' novels, unfortunately--I need to read some of his, myself.

No idea about Charles Williams' novels, unfortunately--I need to read some of his, myself.

You have heard good things about him?

You have heard good things about him?

Some, at least. And C.S. Lewis liked him, although IIRC Professor Tolkien thought there was something a bit off about him. I think Tolkien's objections were more theological than literary, FWIW.

He's on my list of folk I need to read. I think I may've even once pulled some of his stuff off Gutenberg, although the now it would all be somewhere archived on my external harddrive, and any road I find it easier to read fiction in hardcopy.

I've read a couple of Williams' novels - used to have a housemate who was a Williams obsessive, indeed - but that was a long time ago, and I'm not even sure which ones they were. They were powerful, but left a rather strange taste in the mouth. Quite apart from the issues with women, etc. (see Lewis's That Hideous Strength for a Williams-saturated novel that has even more of those, but which I quite like), he seemed almost too, how I shall I put it, wholehearted in his depictions of evil. Suck it and see, but don't be surprised if it cuts your tongue.

Suck it and see, but don't be surprised if it cuts your tongue.

I think you just won this post.

Thank you.

Must re-read some Charles Williams. There aren't that many novels, actually, and my recollection is that the things I liked about them and the things I disliked about them were pretty constant from one to the next. I think The Place of the Lion was frightening, and that I liked The Greater Trumps, but that's as far as my recollection goes.

I think The Place of the Lion was frightening, and that I liked The Greater Trumps, but that's as far as my recollection goes.

It's still information, which is what I'm looking for. Thanks. What did you like and dislike about his novels overall?

Hmmm. Well, it was a long time ago, so a) my memory is not to be trusted and b) a certain amount of racism and sexism was - oh, just one of those things that you automatically filtered out, because otherwise you wouldn't read anything at all.

papersky is right about the congruence of Williams' novels and The Hideous Strength, though.

His magic, as

poliphilo says, is truly magical. Deeply but also highly, exaltedly magical. It scared me (in the same way as the magic in Elidor scared me, but it made the books rich and vivid.

My main problem, or the one I recollect most clearly, was with the endings: these tended to be along the lines of Galahad finding the Holy Grail and expiring on the spot. I wanted the characters to have happy endings in this world, failing which I'd have settled for unhappy endings. I didn't respond well to being given an unhappy ending (by my reckoning) and being told it was happy really.

You make me want to re-read them, and see if this is still the case. (But you also make me want to pick up my still-pending re-read of the Narnia books. You temptress, you!)

I didn't respond well to being given an unhappy ending (by my reckoning) and being told it was happy really.

I feel that way about The Last Battle. What if you didn't want to be transported to Aslan's Country at age sixteen?

(But you also make me want to pick up my still-pending re-read of the Narnia books. You temptress, you!)

Hey, was Eleanor Cameron so bad?

I like hearing people's stray ideas, and the little things like cough drops always make people more real to me. Looking back on them yourself, yeah, I think you can find things in there that didn't mean much on the day they were written. But stray thoughts collected ... that could become something.

But stray thoughts collected ... that could become something.

I am tired of feeling that anything of interest to me is automatically uninteresting. So I'm working on shifting perception.

Charles Williams didn't write many novels so my advice is read them all. Except for the one about Zulus- which is as racist as you'd expect from a mid-century English guy who grew up reading Rider Haggard and had never been to Africa.

His characters are weak and his dialogue often impossible, but no-one ever wrote more convincingly about magick.

Except for the one about Zulus- which is as racist as you'd expect from a mid-century English guy who grew up reading Rider Haggard and had never been to Africa.

. . . ouch.

His characters are weak and his dialogue often impossible, but no-one ever wrote more convincingly about magick.

Then I should read him. Thank you.

I read half a ton of Charles Williams because he was an Inkling, but I never managed to like any of them despite trying really hard. They had nightmarish imagery and implausible women and villains (but I repeat myself). Wonderful sentences, though.

I didn't much like his poetry either.

I didn't much like his poetry either.

For the same reasons or for different faults entirely?

His poetry doesn't make sense. I really wanted to like Taliessin in Logres -- I mean how could anyone not like something called that? But I felt as if it was candyfloss, there was nothing there to bite on.

Also, having read what you said about That Hideous Strength, I have to say that Williams work is a lot like the things I liked least about THS, which is probably the book I like least out of all the books I actually own. I don't tend to keep books I dislike and don't intend to read again.

I really wanted to like Taliessin in Logres -- I mean how could anyone not like something called that? But I felt as if it was candyfloss, there was nothing there to bite on.

Bummer. I was also attracted by the title; same with The Region of the Summer Stars. I may still try him anyway, just to see if the language does it for me. But I consider myself warned.

I have to say that Williams work is a lot like the things I liked least about THS, which is probably the book I like least out of all the books I actually own.

And now I consider myself very warned.

You never did answer me about the Voynich MS. I think you should look it over for fun. And I am on twitter. Nothin' wrong with twitter. You could twitter as the Dickensian avatar of the author of the Taaffe papers.

You never did answer me about the Voynich MS.

I don't think I got that e-mail. Would you be willing to re-send it?

You could twitter as the Dickensian avatar of the author of the Taaffe papers.

I think I first discovered Twitter because Othar Tryggvassen had an account . . .

You and your strange hobbies! Sleipnir O'Hara. Snrk.

It wasn't an email, it was just an LJ comment, but I will email at more length on the subject. It's a manuscript no one's deciphered yet. It's like the antikythera device with PICTURES.

It's a manuscript no one's deciphered yet. It's like the antikythera device with PICTURES.

Cool.

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I remember how they took you down

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