A witch or an apostle, the Devil doesn't care

[sovay]

I appreciate this review of Heretic (2024) informing me in so many words that I am not the film's target audience:

What's scarier than believing in a higher power that controls our every move? Not believing in a higher power at all [. . .] The film is a distillation of thousands of years of the same basic narratives into barely different religions that have shaped human history.

Tell me that the writer-directors are at least culturally Christian without telling me etc. because I don't find atheism remotely frightening, nor is it incompatible with the traditions of the ethnoreligion to which I belong, and if you believe that all human religions across history are barely differentiable from one another, when you get your head out of your Joseph Campbell have I got bad news for you. I am unironically glad that Hugh Grant is having such a good time in his horror debut, but theologically this film sounds stressfully reminiscent of every gotcha conversation I have tried to avoid with the kind of new-or-not atheist who sure sounds hella Christian when filtering the discourse through the lens of belief and treats Mithraism or the Baʿal cycle like a mic drop. I hope it's more complicated. I am not encouraged by summations like:

Why do we believe what we believe? Is it just because we've been told to do so? Or is there something beyond the many books that Reed claims to have read? "Heretic" is a horror movie about some of the most soul-rattling ideas in history, including not just that there's nothing after death but that everything we've built our lives on has been a lie.

By now I am of course prejudiced against the use of the first person plural in this review, but aside from the fact that the dreadful truth beneath a cushion of lies is rather a horror staple, I am not convinced that the loss of faith is such a shockingly universal experience, even among people who have left the religions they were born into. tl;dr I leave this perennial post here and I'll wait for the filmmakers to explain to me how Buryat shamanism and Yoruba Ìṣẹ̀ṣe are totes interchangeable.

Comments

[muccamukk]

I'm mostly glad that Hugh Grant is living his best life, but the themes don't especially appeal to me either. Sounds like he read a theology book in college and is shooketh.

[sovay]

I'm mostly glad that Hugh Grant is living his best life, but the themes don't especially appeal to me either. Sounds like he read a theology book in college and is shooketh.

To be fair to Hugh Grant, he might just have thought it looked like a fun script, but it doesn't sound substantial.

[mrissa]

And I sometimes like insubstantial movies! What I don't like is insubstantial movies that are convinced of their own ponderous insightful importance.

[muccamukk]

I think he's just enjoying being evil.

[gwynnega]

Yeah, I can't say I've experienced that kind of loss of faith, and I certainty don't find atheism frightening.

[sovay]

Yeah, I can't say I've experienced that kind of loss of faith, and I certainty don't find atheism frightening.

It wouldn't have occured to me that people did!

[teenybuffalo]

Hoo boy hoo boy hoooooo boyyyyyyyyy. I appreciate in turn the fact that you're bringing these qualities up, because I think it would annoy me too much to watch this movie. Part of me got excited about Hugh Grant, but not enough to sit through this sort of thing. I'm remembering anew why I don't hang out with other atheists.

What's scarier than believing in a higher power that controls our every move? Not believing in a higher power at all.

(Cue the scene from Dogma where the nun has one slightly uncomfortable conversation that sends her into a screaming breakdown and she indulges in every sin in the book.)

The quote above also reminds me of a story told by a mutual friend whose online handle I forget, who had met a man who found cosmic horror very comforting; the idea being that he had grown up being told that God was watching his every move and had opinions about everything he did. The idea of an impersonal cosmos, where the gods didn't exist or else didn't give a shit about humans, was lovely and relaxing for him.

[minoanmiss]

a man who found cosmic horror very comforting; the idea being that he had grown up being told that God was watching his every move and had opinions about everything he did. The idea of an impersonal cosmos, where the gods didn't exist or else didn't give a shit about humans, was lovely and relaxing for him.

That was my reaction to cosmic horror as well! I find an impersonal cosmos far more comforting than "His Eye is on the sparrow and I know He watches me."

[teenybuffalo]

Oh my gosh, you should know that I recently was commiserating about the US election, with a good friend who is a (radical, leftist, progressive, etc etc, kind and ethical) Christian, and they mentioned taking comfort from "His Eye Is On The Sparrow." I just went along with that at the time, because why hurt their feelings, but yeah, I can't find much reassurance in that song.

[minoanmiss]

That was kind and, well, friendly of you. People take comfort from different things. But yeah I always felt squashed by the concept of God's Eye Upon Me.

[sovay]

I appreciate in turn the fact that you're bringing these qualities up, because I think it would annoy me too much to watch this movie. Part of me got excited about Hugh Grant, but not enough to sit through this sort of thing. I'm remembering anew why I don't hang out with other atheists.

I am glad my griping on the internet has served as an early warning system! It has made me conclude that if I feel like watching religious horror, its baseline should be at least the caliber of conversation I am getting in these comments.

For Hugh Grant and horror, I just remembered there's always The Lair of the White Worm (1988), which almost certainly doesn't count, but you get a Peter Capaldi on the side.

(Cue the scene from Dogma where the nun has one slightly uncomfortable conversation that sends her into a screaming breakdown and she indulges in every sin in the book.)

Hah. Yes. Ouch.

The quote above also reminds me of a story told by a mutual friend whose online handle I forget, who had met a man who found cosmic horror very comforting; the idea being that he had grown up being told that God was watching his every move and had opinions about everything he did. The idea of an impersonal cosmos, where the gods didn't exist or else didn't give a shit about humans, was lovely and relaxing for him.

That makes sense to me and I am glad to hear that someone introduced him to cosmicism. I find great comfort in the idea of the sea and the stars outlasting me and everything to do with the notion of this world as God's proving ground wigs me right out.

[moon_custafer]

I always try to interpret that one bit from Dogma as: “if the nun could be turned from her faith by that feeble an argument, she had no business being a nun to begin with,” and that she was probably written in to contrast with the film’s protagonist.

But yeah.

[minoanmiss]

Ahahahaha now I want to watch this movie to mock it (but not give them any money) I spent maybe 15 seconds thinking of becoming that kind of culturally Christian atheist until 1) my Jewish friends expanded my universe 2) my friends of other kinds of Christianity than the Fundamenatlism of my childhood expanded my universe and 3) the sociobiological "White Man Is The Apex Of Human Rationality" philosophy of those atheists drove me away.

I do so love your analyses.

[sovay]

Ahahahaha now I want to watch this movie to mock it (but not give them any money)

I have confirmed with spatch that if he's on box or on door at the Somerville and it isn't a sold-out show, he will let you in. He is conspicuous by his Brooklyn Cyclones baseball cap and his consistent masking and the pictures I have posted of him over the years.

I spent maybe 15 seconds thinking of becoming that kind of culturally Christian atheist until 1) my Jewish friends expanded my universe 2) my friends of other kinds of Christianity than the Fundamenatlism of my childhood expanded my universe and 3) the sociobiological "White Man Is The Apex Of Human Rationality" philosophy of those atheists drove me away.

Richard Dawkins is definitely the atheist version of a shande far di goyim. I appreciate beyond words that you dodged that bullet.

I do so love your analyses.

Thank you!

[flemmings]

Richard Dawkins is definitely the atheist version of a shande far di goyim

Thank you. That made me laugh out loud for the first time since Tuesday.

[teenybuffalo]

I was coming here to express a similar sentiment! High-five!

[sovay]

Thank you. That made me laugh out loud for the first time since Tuesday.

I'm glad!

[ashlyme]

And that's a hard pass from me. I suspect I'd find Heretic both uncomfortable and tedious. Atheism doesn't scare me - I had a brief flirtation with Christianity in my teens, which could have fucked me up. Now I'm somewhere I'm on the godless/heathen axis and happier for it.

[sovay]

Atheism doesn't scare me - I had a brief flirtation with Christianity in my teens, which could have fucked me up. Now I'm somewhere I'm on the godless/heathen axis and happier for it.

You deal in the numinous: that has always seemed healthy to me.

(I quite seriously did not think anyone was really scared by the concept of not believing in a higher power. It's not like you're cut adrift in the universe. Deep time isn't going anywhere.)

*hugs*

[vass]

I'm reminded of a line from a review I once read of .clipping's Splendor and Misery. I can't remember it well enough to quote, but it was something to the effect that the ending of that album is only frightening to someone who believed they were the centre of the universe in the first place (context in the event that you haven't listened to it: it is not frightening to the protagonists of that album.)

[sovay]

that the ending of that album is only frightening to someone who believed they were the centre of the universe in the first place (context in the event that you haven't listened to it: it is not frightening to the protagonists of that album.)

Yes. I did listen to that album, and yes.