sovay: (Lord Peter Wimsey)
sovay ([personal profile] sovay) wrote2022-11-07 10:38 pm

But it's not even real and I care about her and I care what she learns

I have just discovered that there will be a total lunar eclipse early tomorrow in my time zone between moonset and sunrise. It gave me instant Hilaire Belloc: My brother, good morning; my sister, goodnight. What a liminal thing for the orrery of the skies to do.

Earlier in the afternoon I was talking about Dorothy L. Sayers' The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club (1928) with the natural result that I am re-reading The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club. I had forgotten this exchange between Wimsey and Sheila Fentiman:

'But I must tell you about George.'

He looked at her, and decided that she really must tell him about George.

'I'm sorry. I didn't mean to bully. One has an ancestral idea that women must be treated like imbeciles in a crisis. Centuries of the "women-and-children-first" idea, I suppose. Poor devils!'

'Who—the women?'

'Yes. No wonder they sometimes lose their heads. Pushed into corners, told nothing of what's happening, and made to sit quiet and do nothing. Strong men would go dotty in the circs. I suppose that's why we've always grabbed the privilege of rushing about and doing the heroic bits.'

'That's quite true. Give me the kettle.'

'No, no, I'll do that. You sit down and—I mean, sorry,
take the kettle. Fill it, light the gas, put it on. And tell me about George.'

What Peter's comment about the privilege of heroically rushing about is not really glossing over, because in some ways the entire novel is about the war and its aftermath, is that strong men in the circs—himself included—did go dotty. Exactly that enforced helplessness is one of the conditions associated with trench warfare. And its archetypal result, shell-shock, shared in the best traditions of the shadow side or perhaps just the statistical realities of post-WWI Britain by the sleuth of the mystery with one of the suspects in the murder, the aforementioned George whose "queer fits" of imagining himself under the direction of the Devil are perhaps the counterpart to Peter's paralyzing "old responsibility-dream," is so conventionally feminizing a disability with all its hysteria and vulnerability that Pat Barker makes its explicit examination as such a cornerstone of Regeneration (1991):

Mobilization. The Great Adventure. They'd been mobilized into holes in the ground so constricted they could hardly move. And the Great Adventure – the real life equivalent of all the adventure stories they'd devoured as boys – consisted of crouching in a dugout, waiting to be killed. The war that promised so much in the way of 'manly' activity had actually delivered 'feminine' passivity, and on a scale that their mothers and sisters had scarcely known. No wonder they broke down [. . .] This reinforced Rivers' belief that it was prolonged strain, immobility and helplessness that did the damage, and not the sudden shocks or bizarre horrors that the patients themselves were inclined to point to as the explanation for their condition. That would help to account for the greater prevalence of anxiety neuroses and hysterical disorders in women in peacetime, since their relatively more confined lives gave them fewer opportunities of reacting to stress in active and constructive ways. Any explanation of war neurosis must account for the fact that this apparently intensely masculine life of war and danger and hardship produced in men the same disorders that women suffered from in peace.

And then I had to hunt down a passage in Rachel Mann's Fierce Imaginings: The Great War, Ritual, Memory and God (2017), which is blunter and more poetic still:

War always intersects with masculinity's deepest terror: its annihilation in death. The Feminine, the Other, Death itself threaten to overwhelm and generates terror. Yet, the Great War – principally understood as a war which was dominated by stasis and powerlessness in the face of high-explosive – doubles this threat. Not only is death threatened, but men are deprived of the means by which to face it 'like a man.' He is reduced to being done to rather than doing.

It is very frustrating more than a hundred years later to watch people trying to reimpress categories that have never been stamped and sealed. It is a staple of the mythos of World War I that it blew up time, but surely we've laid down some new strata since. Look at that moon.
sara: S (Default)

[personal profile] sara 2022-11-08 06:55 am (UTC)(link)
I had a conversation a few months ago with one of the union members I represent, in which he expressed his very strong feeling that he didn't want to be vaccinated (again) because he felt that it was a medical procedure he didn't want and that if he didn't consent to it, he would lose critical things from his life (in this case, his job) and by the end of the discussion I realized oh -- you have been made to feel like a woman, in that your body is not yours but the state's to regulate, and you have realized that it's hateful, but you haven't realized why you hate it.

He's a good guy and all but I don't think he will ever see for himself what I saw there.
Edited 2022-11-08 06:56 (UTC)
sara: S (Default)

[personal profile] sara 2022-11-08 03:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, he's very white. And ex military, so I know he's been shot full of damn near everything, which may also play a part here.

I have some color blind dudes in my program and have had to institute some standards so they can LITERALLY SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING and they are deeply uncomfortable with asking for accommodation. I get it but at the same time I make cracks about how no we WILL be accommodating white men in this program.

They put up with it from me because we've been in the field together but they absolutely can't hear it and won't tolerate it from, say, HR. They'd rather just not be accommodated than have the conversation. I really get it, because I'm often the same way, and also it grieves me.
asakiyume: (miroku)

[personal profile] asakiyume 2022-11-08 01:25 pm (UTC)(link)
oh -- you have been made to feel like a woman, in that your body is not yours but the state's to regulate, and you have realized that it's hateful

Oh that's brilliant. I wish more people would recognize this.
sara: S (Default)

[personal profile] sara 2022-11-08 03:41 pm (UTC)(link)
I was glad to have had such an honest conversation with him and at the same time I want him to compromise and learn to see beyond his fear.
asakiyume: created by the ninja girl (Default)

[personal profile] asakiyume 2022-11-09 03:23 am (UTC)(link)
The honest conversation was a big first step.
sara: S (Default)

[personal profile] sara 2022-11-09 06:13 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, one good thing about my work is that I have a lot of strong relationships with people whose politics aren't like mine. We agree on things more often than not, honestly, which is a perspective that I wish more people had nowadays.
asakiyume: (miroku)

[personal profile] asakiyume 2022-11-09 12:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes: it must keep you grounded. However bad nebulous aggregate political views can be, you don't make the mistake of viewing the person in front of you as embodying the entirety of that.
dewline: Text - "On the DEWLine" (Default)

[personal profile] dewline 2022-11-08 02:00 pm (UTC)(link)
You're not wrong to notice that.
sara: S (Default)

[personal profile] sara 2022-11-08 03:41 pm (UTC)(link)
I get it, because I don't exactly enjoy being treated like a girl, but.
oracne: turtle (Default)

[personal profile] oracne 2022-11-08 08:07 pm (UTC)(link)
That is an excellent insight.
watervole: (Default)

[personal profile] watervole 2022-11-08 12:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Sayers was a very perceptive writer.
asakiyume: (nevermore)

[personal profile] asakiyume 2022-11-08 01:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you, Dorothy Sayers, for expressing in fiction one of the things I rage against in the divvying up of traits into boxes called "male" and "female" (could we just not put those traits in any boxes, please? Just let them be available to all people?--but that's a different rant)--that heroic action isn't something available to women. They are the objects to be heroic about and the rewards after the heroism is accomplished. NO THANKS.

'No, no, I'll do that. You sit down and—I mean, sorry, take the kettle. Fill it, light the gas, put it on. --THANK YOU, PETER.

asakiyume: (hugs and kisses)

[personal profile] asakiyume 2022-11-09 12:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I am very happy for them: it's very comforting!
moon_custafer: Doodle of a generic Penguin Books cover (penguin)

[personal profile] moon_custafer 2022-11-08 01:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Conversely, I’ve seen more than one comment on how for female volunteers (especially drivers), the War often was a permit to break out of their previous roles, and that many of them didn't go back afterwards.
kenjari: (Default)

[personal profile] kenjari 2022-11-08 04:01 pm (UTC)(link)
I've always thought that it's no coincidence that major surges of feminism have followed the big wars in the US (although WWII seems to be the exception).
moon_custafer: sexy bookshop mnager Dorothy Malone (Acme Bookshop)

[personal profile] moon_custafer 2022-11-08 07:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Don't know how true it is, but one of the explanations I've heard given for the 1950s is that enough conservative authorities recalled the 1920s and said "we have to force the women back into the home after this one!"

ETA- I think the real explanation for the 1950s is the Cold War, ie "whatever the USSR does culturally/socially, we have to do the opposite as much as possible!"
Edited 2022-11-08 19:47 (UTC)
rachelmanija: (Lightbulb has to want to change)

[personal profile] rachelmanija 2022-11-08 05:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Lack of control, or the perception of lack of control, is one of the biggest risk factors for PTSD.

The other is that the traumatic event was done to you deliberately, or that the aftermath of it involved someone's deliberate choices, particularly if the person or people who did it were someone you trusted who betrayed you.

You can see why WWI was particularly bad for PTSD. So is incest.
oracne: turtle (Default)

[personal profile] oracne 2022-11-08 07:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Excellent synthesis.
kitewithfish: (Default)

[personal profile] kitewithfish 2022-11-08 09:50 pm (UTC)(link)
These are some excellent things to pull out of some sources I would not have come across on my own - thank you for sharing!