While people were pressed into camps not called concentration

[sovay]

spatch has been relaying me select portions of the conservative protest against the term "concentration camps." I have been quoting To Be or Not to Be (1942) at him: "Yes, we do the concentrating and the Poles do the camping."

I like David Schraub's not-statement on the matter:

But anyone who thinks that litigating the question "is it proper to refer to these detention centers as 'concentration camps'" is more important, or as important, or maybe not quite as important but still within the same order of magnitude of importance, as full and unqualified opposition to Trump's border practices deserves naught but our contempt and scorn. If you want these comparisons to be made cautiously, great, I agree. If you think that investing energy in policing whether this or that comparison was sufficiently "cautious" is a worthy use of your time that can justify departing even for an instant from unflagging opposition to Trump's border policies, then you need to re-examine your priorities.

(In the meantime, I fall within that portion of the American Jewish population that hears "But this comparison is offensive to the Jews!" and says, "Well, actually . . .")

Comments

[sara]

I've yet to meet a Jew who didn't think it was profoundly offensive to lock kids in penal facilities when they've not committed any crime. There are probably some out there but I don't want to meet them.

(also my friend with the second-most-Polish surname of anyone I've ever known is a super enthusiastic camper so I laughed pretty hard at that one even though it's funny ugh-oh, and not really funny ha-ha)

[sovay]

I've yet to meet a Jew who didn't think it was profoundly offensive to lock kids in penal facilities when they've not committed any crime.

I haven't, either! I just know there are (small-c, right-wing as opposed capital-C, the denomination) conservative Jews out there and I'm sure some of them have splintered on the wrong side of this argument, just because statistical distribution is statistical distribution and people are people.

But everyone I know personally has been more in line with Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg: "Tornillo doesn't have to be Auschwitz—a death camp—for it to be a concentration camp. Analogies don't have to be perfect to be instructive. Here, they help us to see how grave and urgent the situation is."

(also my friend with the second-most-Polish surname of anyone I've ever known is a super enthusiastic camper so I laughed pretty hard at that one even though it's funny ugh-oh, and not really funny ha-ha)

Honestly, that's an appropriate response to To Be or Not to Be.

[drwex]

Rabbi Danya is my favorite Twitter rabbi. I have others to recommend if you're interested in that.

I am using this debate over the concentration camps to improve my Twitter block list.

[sovay]

Rabbi Danya is my favorite Twitter rabbi. I have others to recommend if you're interested in that.

I am not actually on Twitter—I get most of my Twitter news from spatch and selkie—but if they have public accounts, I don't mind knowing.

I am using this debate over the concentration camps to improve my Twitter block list.

That's getting some use out of it.

[selkie]

I am friends with a statistically high percentage of rabbi Twitter, if you ever want a wrap-up. Mostly this week, Seb Gorka piled onto Jonah Pesner, and everyrabbi came back swinging on Pesner's behalf. I am not echt fond of Pesner as a human, but he didn't deserve the Nazi Twitter callout.

[sovay]

I am friends with a statistically high percentage of rabbi Twitter

This is me not being surprised.

Mostly this week, Seb Gorka piled onto Jonah Pesner, and everyrabbi came back swinging on Pesner's behalf. I am not echt fond of Pesner as a human, but he didn't deserve the Nazi Twitter callout.

What the fuck.

[dewline]

I'm certain that such people exist; If they didn't, Binyamin Netanyahu would not be PM of Israel at this point. But that's a topic for another day.

[sovay]

But that's a topic for another day.

Especially since what is under discussion is the response of American Jews to Trump's border policies. None of whom, no matter how far-right they get, have the ability to vote for Netanyahu.

[dewline]

And with that, we shall move on.

[poliphilo]

I believe the term "concentration camp" was first used of the detention centres into which the British herded Boer civilians during the South African War. They weren't designed as death camps- but a lot of people died in them.

[sovay]

They weren't designed as death camps- but a lot of people died in them.

Which is precisely what's happening now. You don't need a Holocaust for a crime against humanity.

[tree_and_leaf]

Yes, exactly. The fact that the British did not intend to cause deaths* doesn't mean that they weren't responsible for the large number of deaths resulting from disease caused by over-crowding, inadequate shelter, and insufficient food. (I'm not sure that some of the conditions described in some of the shelters aren't actually worse than many of the British concentration camps, in fact...)

*Though they bloody well should have anticipated them, and they would have if they'd cared enough to think about it.

[sovay]

(I'm not sure that some of the conditions described in some of the shelters aren't actually worse than many of the British concentration camps, in fact...)

As far as I can tell, conditions in the detention centers are so bad, I'm not sure why the International Red Cross hasn't gotten involved.

[rachelmanija]

All the Jews I know have been making that comparison since this whole thing started.

[sovay]

All the Jews I know have been making that comparison since this whole thing started.

Well, there is that, too.

[wpadmirer]

Yeah, I'm annoyed at people who are focusing on semantics and not what's happening.

[sovay]

Yeah, I'm annoyed at people who are focusing on semantics and not what's happening.

It's like tone policing, but grosser.

[asakiyume]

Hearty agree.

[sovay]

Hearty agree.

It doesn't seem complicated to me, but then I'm not arguing in bad faith.

[cmcmck]

Just so.

The British invented the concept during what gets known as the 'Boer' war.

It looks like one, smells like one and runs like one, therefore............

[sovay]

It looks like one, smells like one and runs like one, therefore............

The worst duck.

[dewline]

Amen. Just...amen.

This is a real obscenity that's really happening.

[sovay]

This is a real obscenity that's really happening.

I am trying to figure out what's being done about it that makes a difference. I can call my congresspeople all I want (and I have), but I happen to have congresspeople who are fighting it and it still seems to go on. I don't know where the levers are. I don't know what shifts the weight.

[gwynnega]

Exactly.

[sovay]

Exactly.

There are so many other pieces of the twentieth century I would have been happier to remix.