sovay: (Sydney Carton)
sovay ([personal profile] sovay) wrote2022-11-09 02:25 pm

I know we're all going to die once I feel all right

I spent almost all of the previous day with my internal soundtrack set to A.E. Housman, meaning that anyone riding shotgun with me on various errands would have heard me reciting as much as I have committed to memory of A Shropshire Lad (1896), which is generally as much as I have heard set to music, and the three-eighths of "The Oracles" that I find haunting as opposed to highly alliterative. I can't recite "Twice a week the winter thorough," but I may pettily side-eye Edith Sitwell forever for writing it off so wittily in Aspects of Modern Poetry (1934):

It is claimed by admirers of cricket and of war that Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. If this may be held to be true, cricket did, on that occasion, bring a great many men to their death. But I do not think that Professor Housman has explained to us clearly enough how it is that cricket has saved men from dying. If he means us to understand that cricket, and cricket alone, has prevented men from committing suicide, then their continuation on this earth seems hardly worth while.

It's true that some of what Housman's narrators experience as pathos is legible as bathos to the reader, e.g. the plangent discovery of the last couplet of "When I was one-and-twenty." There are other poems in the collection where disappointment in love translates credibly into despair of the world; in that one it seems mostly a function of being two-and-twenty. One of the other narrators will come by in a bit and give him the only advice there is, which is far less often to put the pistol to your head than to shoulder the sky and drink your ale. Or play sports, if the routine is what gets you through the seasons day by day. I can understand Sitwell's sarcasm about the first two verses; phrases like "See the son of grief at cricket" are exactly the stupid stuff Housman has his anticipated critics deride. And then the last verse just plunges off the pitch into the appalling existential prospect—not at all sentimental or adolescent and desperately familiar—that our most stalwart institutions may be nothing more than a distraction from self-destruction, our best efforts reduced to the trivializing "mirth" which may yet be the only thing keeping us this side the grave. It isn't about cricket or football or any other human endeavor. It's about the impossibility of believing that these things will really help and keeping on with them all the same. "No harm in trying." If the narrator doesn't sound convinced by his own resolution, he's still here to make it. There's much worth while in that.

It is entirely possible that I am arguing partly with a straw man. Sitwell was known for her invective and Aspects of Modern Poetry is as much slapfight as criticism, most memorably with her contemporary enemies: "As for the interpretation of the stressing, it is sad to see Milton's great lines bobbing up and down in the sandy desert of Dr Leavis' mind with the grace of a fleet of weary camels." She did no lasting damage to Housman and I'm sure he had defenders on the spot all those almost ninety years ago. But everybody has something and cricket is no sillier than the gas fire you light instead of lying down in front of, to jump tracks to another Terence and the problem of staying alive, which is to say in trouble, for remedy of which we have poetry, whether it helps or not.
rushthatspeaks: (Default)

[personal profile] rushthatspeaks 2022-11-09 11:58 pm (UTC)(link)
You're absolutely right, and Sitwell is wrong, and I can't tell whether she knows it and is just going for the easy joke. But the poem itself is one of the shorter and more effective evocations I've seen of the feeling of having to just get up and do something, whether it helps or not, because what is the alternative? So yeah, understandable argument-- my reaction to her is an annoyed growl.
swan_tower: (Default)

[personal profile] swan_tower 2022-11-10 02:54 am (UTC)(link)
I don't know why, of all the poets I've encountered, Housman most reliably hits me in the gut; I only know that it's true.
asakiyume: (miroku)

[personal profile] asakiyume 2022-11-10 04:27 am (UTC)(link)
everybody has something and cricket is no sillier than the gas fire you light instead of lying down in front of --I'm not intimate with the poems, and Sitwell's criticism is new to me, but I most definitely agree with this line.
Edited (html!) 2022-11-10 04:27 (UTC)
pameladean: (Default)

[personal profile] pameladean 2022-11-10 08:09 am (UTC)(link)
While I am happy to see F.R. Leavis flattened, I am much happier to see your defense of Housman. I think he is more nuanced than Sitwell thinks, and your exegesis was really lovely.

Now I want to see a production of "The Invention of Love."

P.
swan_tower: myself in costume as the Norse goddess Hel (Hel)

[personal profile] swan_tower 2022-11-10 10:06 am (UTC)(link)
which feels to me like criticizing the characters in a musical for singing

So very much this. A style can be Not For You; that doesn't mean the style is a priori invalid. Half the point of poetry is to say things in a way that isn't how people would normally express themselves.
swan_tower: The Long Room library at Trinity College, Dublin (Long Room)

[personal profile] swan_tower 2022-11-10 10:11 am (UTC)(link)
Yes -- in fact, this has made me reflect that Housman pings some of the same note, just in the octave of a century earlier and British, as Stephen King occasionally does: stating something in so workaday a voice that it somehow wraps around to epic. I mostly noticed King doing that in the Dark Tower books; I haven't read enough of his horror to know if it's a consistent trait. But I love it when it happens.
thisbluespirit: (writing)

[personal profile] thisbluespirit 2022-11-10 10:35 am (UTC)(link)
"As for the interpretation of the stressing, it is sad to see Milton's great lines bobbing up and down in the sandy desert of Dr Leavis' mind with the grace of a fleet of weary camels."

That is an amazing line. XD

Still, defend your favourites! Defend the right to live for cricket, if that's what does it for you! <3
asakiyume: (far horizon)

[personal profile] asakiyume 2022-11-10 12:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Indeed. The news is news that men have heard before and he that stands will die for naught are for me especially whoa.
mrissa: (Default)

[personal profile] mrissa 2022-11-10 12:13 pm (UTC)(link)
SAME.
mrissa: (Default)

[personal profile] mrissa 2022-11-10 12:19 pm (UTC)(link)
I am at a phase in my life when I want to slap anybody who is that dismissive of something that keeps people carrying on. Even if it's cricket. Even if it's a cricket. Whatever it is. It is SO EASY to be blithely dismissive of other people's struggles, so much harder to express them. I feel like it's almost worse if she makes jokes like that without meaning them just to sound clever. Gross.
cmcmck: (Default)

[personal profile] cmcmck 2022-11-10 12:32 pm (UTC)(link)
On Wenlock Edge the wood’s in trouble;
His forest fleece the Wrekin heaves;
The gale, it plies the saplings double,
And thick on Severn snow the leaves.

’Twould blow like this through holt and hanger
When Uricon the city stood:
’Tis the old wind in the old anger,
But then it threshed another wood.

Then, ’twas before my time, the Roman
At yonder heaving hill would stare:
The blood that warms an English yeoman,
The thoughts that hurt him, they were there.

There, like the wind through woods in riot,
Through him the gale of life blew high;
The tree of man was never quiet:
Then ’twas the Roman, now ’tis I.

The gale, it plies the saplings double,
It blows so hard, ’twill soon be gone:
To-day the Roman and his trouble
Are ashes under Uricon.



When you live as close as we do the the places mentioned here, it brings it even closer to home.
vass: Small turtle with green leaf in its mouth (Default)

[personal profile] vass 2022-11-10 01:43 pm (UTC)(link)
I've loved Sitwell's poems since I was about eleven, but she was... really not a very nice person. And was Wrong about many things.

I suspect that the reason she's unable to appreciate Housman is, they both had precious little sense of humour about their own pathos but he had just enough more than she did to make her self-conscious.

It's true that some of what Housman's narrators experience as pathos is legible as bathos to the reader

I am reminded of Hugh Kingsmill's 'A Poem, After A.E. Housman', which I had to go look up after seeing this post. I'd remembered the final couplet ("Lads whose job is still to do / Shall whet their knives and think of you") but forgot (how? it is unforgettable) the opening couplet: "What, still alive at twenty-two, / A clean, upstanding chap like you?"

[personal profile] anna_wing 2022-11-10 01:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Housman, Edna St Vincent Millay and Rudyard Kipling were the poets who hooked me young and have never really let go.
flemmings: (Default)

[personal profile] flemmings 2022-11-10 04:53 pm (UTC)(link)

Why, if your throat tis hard to slit Slit your girl's and swing for it.

Thank you for the reminder. In return:

When lads have done with labour

In Shropshire, one will cry

"Let's go and kill a neighbour,

And t'other answers "Aye!"

So this one kills his cousins,

And that one kills his dad

And, as they hang by dozens

At Ludlow, lad by lad,

Each of them one-and-twenty,

All of them murderers,

The hangman mutters: "Plenty

Even for Housman's verse."

Edited 2022-11-10 16:59 (UTC)
minoanmiss: A detail of the Ladies in Blue fresco (Default)

[personal profile] minoanmiss 2022-11-10 07:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Word
minoanmiss: Minoan lady holding a bright white star (Lady With Star)

[personal profile] minoanmiss 2022-11-10 07:49 pm (UTC)(link)
I am cheering in agreement
flemmings: (Default)

[personal profile] flemmings 2022-11-10 09:35 pm (UTC)(link)

Helps that they're compulsively memorizable.

swan_tower: The Long Room library at Trinity College, Dublin (Long Room)

[personal profile] swan_tower 2022-11-11 07:36 pm (UTC)(link)
I have not read enough of Stephen King even to notice that it's something he does, so I think that's really neat.

If I still had my copies of the Dark Tower books, I would go digging for the bit where the main characters commit themselves to the quest and see if it holds up the way it did when I first read it. I just remember getting chills on my initial encounter, from language that was very simple and in no way reaching for Ye Olde Epick Heights.

Alas, there is a two-week wait on a library ebook. :-P
swan_tower: The Long Room library at Trinity College, Dublin (Long Room)

[personal profile] swan_tower 2022-11-11 07:38 pm (UTC)(link)
I have always assumed that if Housman hadn't had a sense of humor about himself, he wouldn't have written "Terence, this is stupid stuff"

Agreed. The cow, the old cow, she is dead / It sleep well, the horned head / We poor lads, 'tis our turn now / to hear such tunes as killed the cow is, I think, impossible to read without an overtone of self-mockery.

The Aeschylus parody is fabulous. :-D
teenybuffalo: (Default)

[personal profile] teenybuffalo 2022-11-12 03:48 am (UTC)(link)
And, O my son, be, on the one hand, good,
And do not, on the other hand, be bad;
For that is very much the safest plan


I've loved this parody for decades and am just now finding out it's been returned to Greek. This is strangely satisfying. For the record, what did you all make of it?
vass: Small turtle with green leaf in its mouth (Default)

[personal profile] vass 2022-11-13 02:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you, that one's new to me.
vass: Small turtle with green leaf in its mouth (Default)

[personal profile] vass 2022-11-13 02:31 pm (UTC)(link)
How did you discover her?

My parents had a CD of Prunella Scales doing Façade. It didn't stick at first, but then when I was... okay, per Wikipedia[*] I was probably more like 12, I was trying to be a normal teen/preteen who liked normal things, so I watched rage regularly, and the music video of Shakespear's Sister's 'I Don't Care' made me go "wait a minute, I know those lines!" and then I got really into listening to my parents' Façade CD, and they gave me Sitwell's collected works for my birthday the next year.

[* in that the music video I watched was not out yet when I was eleven, I mean]

Or, wait, my first encounter might have been one of those books of anecdotes and witty quotations that I was addicted to at the same age. Sitwell made for good anecdotes.

And he did it to Aeschylus first, so it's only fair.

True (or to his translators, anyway) and it does speak well of him, and a "suitably attired in leather boots / head of a traveller" has been stuck in my head for many years now.
Edited 2022-11-13 14:32 (UTC)
pameladean: (Default)

[personal profile] pameladean 2022-11-14 11:20 pm (UTC)(link)
I studied him in graduate school, very earnestly and uncritically; but reviewing some of his work just a few years later, was very much in the flattening mood. That hasn't changed much over the years. I was an extremely uncritical young person, I have to say. Later generations impress the heck out of me by coming out the gate ready to flatten as necessary.

P.
pameladean: (Default)

[personal profile] pameladean 2022-11-14 11:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Also, with regard to "The Invention of Love," and the discussion further along in these comments about Housman's sense of humor, I went with a group of eight or nine people who among us had a reasonable amount of classical knowledge; we were fortunate, in the small theater, then called the Guthrie Lab, where the play was produced, to get front-row seats. Whereupon we disgraced ourselves by laughing uproariously and repeatedly at the many, many classical jokes. Stoppard's Housman has a sense of humor, and while Stoppard will poke at almost anybody, this production at least made it feel as if there were camaraderie between the playwright and his subjects. I think a different production could, had it wished, have produced a different effect, the text is so protean. But we were lucky in that regard as well.

I later made a friend who worked backstage at the Guthrie, and who had been working that production; and eventually we had a conversation in which she said, "That was YOU? The actors LOVED it." So we felt better after that.

P.
Edited (put in missing word) 2022-11-14 23:28 (UTC)